flowing hands

These are the verses that Lei Erh Xian Shi (Long Lobed Immortal Master), (Lao Tzu) wrote but were never kept or used in the DDJ. Lei Erh is one of my Teachers and he decided he would teach me the verses that were never used and discarded. He is teaching me the verses up to 108. You can download for free the transmitted version of the DDJ from my site, there are some differences to most others.

Good things never come easy

Of course love, compassion etc. are all human understandings of how we personally view the world. To understand, one has to go outside of such things, enter into oneness with the Dao, rid oneself of all desire etc. and be completely at one with all things. In this state true understanding of the nature of all things is a realization. Getting to this state may involve 'love' but not love like we love someone; a love that shows no boundaries or taint. So what is 'De'? De is the force behind all this. It has so many sides and aspects for De to manifest, one can't just simply label it as that. It is linked to 'Dao xin', It is linked to physical cultivation, it is linked to spiritual cultivation and it is manifest as an Immortal.

Ah ... but then to answer you I would have to unlock the treasures of the universe and the beginnings of all things

No 'De' is not spirit essence, although translated as 'power', virtue etc., 'De' embodies many attributes which are only partly what it really means. Dao De Jhing : The sacred book or book of essential spiritual understanding of the Way of how it manifests, how it is, how things are and understood through the path of cultivation.' Now true cultivation comes from deep within the heart and along with the mind guiding it. So 'De' in this instance means far more than 'virtue', a very misleading understanding of the word.

Your answer lies in the verses!

Of course it all depends on what path one takes as to what practices one does and wishes to achieve. Achievement at a mortal level is hardly worth talking about although to us it may seem super human, it is therefore the path of the afterlife that interests me where unlimited power is available. A path of trying to move objects or burn paper will not secure that sort of power and this path doesn't lead to a long mortal life as in general the 'power' will damage the body more than it will sustain. It is a very tricky path, one not undertaken as I have suggested, without great consideration and knowledge. Such knowledge is rare in the world, although the internet is full of 'experts'.

Neidan involves many different practices. If one was to believe certain forums who follow the Mo Pai of John Chang, Neidan is only meditation. It certainly is not and no book can teach you what you are seeking. You could perhaps learn a small part of it, but without a teacher or even with one, how do you know whether or not you are doing what is being taught to you is right? A maze that I would not even bother going down personally.

Yes I think the person concerned has a large problem

Here is an email I received from a banned member who is a mo pai follower. "Hi Flowing hands. I feel sorry for the people who buy into your Luddite nonsense. Mo Pai is technology, that is a fact. People with your mindset would have us sit in the darkness and play make believe till we die rather than pursue something that is actually real. That is very sad." He obviously didn't want to reply openly to my post so I have posted his message here and I will reply to it openly. Hello mo pai follower, The whole ethos of Daoism is based on 'self' cultivation, the more one goes up the ladder of understanding, the more one realizes that the accumulation of power in a human form is futile. When I first started as a shaman 31 years ago, I was eager to become powerful and of course the Immortal Masters give you their power to start off. Although it seems they have given you a lot of power, it is in fact a single drop in a vast and unending ocean. I have cultivated that power for all those years, but the Immortal Master has never asked me to use that power to do tricks to make people believe in me. Sure I can do some great healing etc. but belief comes from what ones does and goes about in this world and what one says. I believe, as the Immortal Master does, that it is better to steer people into following the Dao and not lead them into fanaticism that they really will never achieve. I bet you that you have never personally met John Chang and yet you think that he is the God you wish to emulate? I am no Luddite, but I try to be wise and to help people when they are obviously lost and confused. If you want to have great power, forget about it and become a perfect person then you can be entrusted with all the power in the universe, but by that time you will have forgotten that which you craved. Good luck on your path Wu Shi Flowing Hands

Remember life has a limit, the body has a limit. We are millions of years of evolution and our DNA dictates that we are healthy with only a certain amount of energy. It is almost impossible to pass a certain level of energy that the body can hold, even if we were to cultivate energy from when we were very young till we died. Keeping ourselves healthy should be our aim, anything else dwells in the realm of 'out of balance'. Beware of those who perform tricks and those who follow them who perform them. They are not seekers of the Dao, but the seekers of adulation and disillusionment. Find yourself a good teacher in qi gong or Tai ji and enjoy your life. Note from staff: for strictly organisational purposes, this post has been moved here from the welcome forum

LOL You obviously think you know it all, I'll dip out of here and leave with your demons!!

Immortals (Xian Shi)

The spirit world is not a thing that one should play with easily. For thousands of years shamans have risked their lives and sanity to establish a proper path to communication with the spirit world. An established way and protection is then within these traditional ways which are learn't under guidance from an established shaman. To veer off this path is opening yourself up to all manner of things. From the posts on this site one would think that it was easy to get a spirit to come to you, its simply not, not a real one that's not a figment in the mind, the bench mark is: A spirit will come to you physically first and move you powerfully so you have no control over your body, after some time the spirit may communicate with you mentally once there has been a proper acceptance. The level that the spirit is at is also what one has to think about, like animals and humans we are all at differing levels of cultivation, though an earthly spirit may have good intentions like the humans who are alive with a body, pushed a little further they may exhibit personality problems which will be a problem for you. Generally it is better to stick with trying to beg the Xian's from the Heavens, they are enlightened and have none of the problems associated with uncultivated spirits. In doing these things remember the mind is very easily fooled.

Education is the key. Taking profit out of Ivory and animal parts is another. Many end users don't want to know whether there are any elephants left or Tigers and many also don't know that they are being slaughtered by people for great profit. Killing things for medicine is not Daoist, the first tennat of Daoism is to hold life as sacred. TCM doctors who use animal parts are not Daoists and haven't been properly educated in Daoist spirituality. There is no known medicinal property bar fooling oneself that Tiger penises have any given properties to enhance virility.

Hey let me put my transmission on here of this verse and upset the apple cart! CHAPTER 28 In knowing a man's strength, always keep a woman's care in your heart. Be the stream of the Universe, ever true and flowing, without preference. Become simple, yielding and soft as a child. Being the stream of the Universe, be an example to the World; approach life with an open mind and an open heart. Dwell in the infinite. Have honour and respect, but keep humility and be humble. In simplicity and openness, return to the State of the uncarved block. For when the block is carved, it becomes useful for men to manipulate and use. When the Sage returns to this state, he becomes the ruler of the Ten Thousand Things. For he leaves everything to rise and fall without interference.

I have not the slightest idea about this man, but I would caution anyone who wants to learn anything other than very basic exercises, by DVD or correspondence course. I was once going to make a DVD myself of one of Hau Tuo Xian Shi's Qigong exercises, but I still have great doubt because I won't be there to observe the student practicing and making sure they are not hurting themselves by doing it wrong. Best of all get some lessons personally with a teacher. Mantak Chia and MO is really only a very small part of Daoist practices, but appeals to the west because it involves sexuality. They have made their fortune and fame from this. Personally, I would avoid such teachers who are getting you into their system through sexuality, as I have stated it really is a very small part of real Daosit practices and are bordering on the Dao of the left.

Trying to assert and understand the Dao by modern mathematics may lead to misunderstanding Speak of the Way and it is not the Way etc. Write of the way and put it in a box and all is lost, but seek the Dao in your heart, there lies the true path to understanding.

Doesn't matter who you are, whether one believes in a single God or Gods or no God at all. Whether you have come into this life as a bacteria or some other life form, you are a Daoist. Whether one can recognize this and follow the way is another matter.

Going back to the original post, no offence mean't but its rather a silly thread. Lao Tzu (li Erh Xian Shi) would have no concept of a single God anyway. The whole culture from whence he came, did not have this belief in existence. There was belief in Immortals and spirits and in the energy of living things. So to say that philosophical Daoism (if there is such a thing) is agnostic is actually correct. But to say that philosophical Daoism doesn't believe in spirits and Immortals is incorrect. The One is not a God, but makes Gods what they are.

Well I started a thread very akin to this and of course shamanism was the start of Daoism (not religion), not any interpreted agnostic philosophy which emerged from the practices and observations of nature and 'nature' practices. Daoist philosophy is alive with spirit and self cultivation and informs us how to become Immortal as well as other things.

I try my best to give you something to think about!

I'm glad that you like it, remember though it is not a translation and back in the mid 80's when I was taught it by Li Erh, I really didn't understand the DDJ very well, so it was new to me! Some would say I don't understand now!

One must remember that Confucian 'virtues' and values are not 'Daoist'.

Well if Li Erh used 'compassion' it would mean something very much of how we may think today. 600 BCE the sparring of life due to extreme hardship, war etc. was the giving of 'mercy' for life was taken too easily in those days. So to show mercy to your enemy, for instance, as a fellow human was to spare life and to give life a second chance. Showing mercy is a form of mental and inner strength that overcomes the baser instincts of humans. Compassion in such an instant is too softer word to describe this act.