flowing hands

This actually is a complete misnoma put about by those that don't really understand the principles of energy cultivation and also why many people then suffer headaches and other related health isuue due to the wrong information about energy cultivation.

Trouble is I can't write it in Chinese! But we do have it in English! So we don't need to translate that which is corrupted. Why was king used.. easy answer; if you don't add this you will lose your head in copying it and the work will be burned by the order of the King, if its not in there.

As I have said we have no original text. I posses the original in English as it was taught to me and certainly 'King'is not mentioned in this chapter and it does not make sense to say that the 'King' is one of the four powers in the universe. Li Erh with great insight would not stoop to such blindness as this, especially after all his other great perceptions. Originally there were about 150 verses, but like many things what we have today, it is someone else's collection of 81, making a Daoist number. Of course Li Erh did not call his verses DDJ, he called it something else and there was a verse with this included. An intellectual is most likely to have collected the verses and made up the title. A Daoist is most likely to have limited it to 81. I strongly suspect that the verses are not in the same order as Li Erh wrote them either. Remember also that many characters of ancient Chinese may have differing meanings to what we know today and I know some characters being esoteric are lost. I will give you an example. My spiritual name 'Flowing Hands' is the nearest English equivalent, but the original characters were to do with a Daoist adept who moved the hands in a way that was controlled and influenced by the energy generated within. Now Daoist adepts were called this when they reached a high stage in their energy cultivation. So my name would be........ Flowing Hands at the end of my first name. As I am a shaman its fitting to be called shaman...........s. So the word that now does not exist once mean't something like 'Flowing Hands'. So I say to you if you want to waste your time it is entirely up to you, you are no nearer the original as the earth is near the sun and you are just fooling yourself that you have some understanding of the text and its implications as to what it was trying to say. This is the main reason why Li Erh taught me his true teachings. It is hard enough to grasp the true meaning of the original and its many implications and facets, let alone trying to grasps that which is wrong in the first place.

The first thing, I don't like to be discouraging, but really 'playing' with translations may be fun but one is loosing the real meaning and teachings. Lao Tzu couldn't give a toss about the King, emperor etc. and would only see such positions as unnecessary. Daoists were and are great believers in people themselves ruling themselves and not a single person lording over them. So no 'King' would ever be mentioned in this way by Lao Tzu. Try again and remember the King is not one of the great powers of the universe. Secondly never believe any written ancient text other than the original, the Chinese were well know to alter the meanings of writings to suit their lord and masters and to alter words to make their job easier!

This is what the Dao is all about, is it that hard for us to understand the inter-connection of all things and how we must preserve the natural order? Ask any government and one draws a blank! Great vid.

Although an interesting interview, our Christian monk does not appear to understand Tao: the cusp of the problem!

For anyone who goes on my website and finds that the video is broken for the time being can go on youtube and type in Shaman Flowing Hands and it is available to watch. I am afraid due to the malicious comments made on the old video I decided enough was enough and no comments are allowed anymore. Best wishes, Flowing Hands

CHAPTER 63 In the Universe, the Dao and the Ten Thousand Things all flow according to their natures. The Heavenly bodies move and glow according to how they were formed Man should take note of this and exercise himself according to their influence, and then he will be in keeping with the Dao. By following the flow and entering into emptiness, practice the ways of doing without doing, influencing without interfering. For the Heavenly bodies influence our lives, but we can never feel their influence. The Sage follows the flow and so he practices influence without interfering. He rewards anger and strife with care and understanding. He meets aggression with yielding softness. So he remains at one, unattached and unharmed. His nature is simple and yielding. So he never complicates his life. He never demands too much of the people or life, and so he does not expect people to fulfill their part. Too many promises can never be kept. So, go with the flow of things and all will be well. When difficulties arise the Sage confronts them, and so he never experiences problems.

My pleasure

I'm going to put some more verses on soon so look out anyone who's interested.

Well yes its different and the meaning of the chapter can certainly get lost in a lot of rhetoric. We do not have an original script and anyone who knows a little about how the Chinese used to carry on will realise that copies were made of many written works and altered by the copyist! I am not being off hand I am simply cutting through that which is unnecessary, seeing that my master is Lao Tzu, he did teach me what he intended and the meaning of each verse. You are right I don't have to be here, carry on with your rhetoric and loose yourselves; once you are lost you may find your way back. The Dao is like that.

You chaps argue over the small details of what you think is the original text; IMO a waste of time. What is chapter two about? Contrast, complimentary differences that make the whole. Yes difficult and easy are different etc. but they are the same, they are part of the whole and seeing this is what Li Erh is saying, part of accepting that this is how the Dao manifests itself in our lives worldly and individually, this is how we should be seeing it, the differences are just part of the whole.

There is such alot wrong with this post in factual alchemy that I really don't know where to start. Well the concept of 'jing' what is it? Its certainly not as described like some strange entity that exists in the body. It is you, me, what we are, the sum total of all that has made us from the very beginning of all things. It is qi, it is Shen, without it we have no qi or shen they are not separate entities. The process of qi and shen, though having said this, is controlled by what we have inherited; this influences our cultivation. Some people have no need for sexual abstinence but can enhance their qi and shen. Some peoples jing; they cannot cultivate without abstinence, there really is no set rule only on how the body reacts to cultivation. Qi cannot be refined to shen. To become an Immortal you must cultivate a yin body energy balanced then with yang. The spirit world is yin, to enter the spirit world and be powerful in that world one cultivates the yin side, the yang side cultivates the material world. The golden light comes from the spirit world of yin not yang. This is just an outward expression, one must face the self, and realize the nine teachings of Daoism, with this understanding, Immortality can be obtained. The three treasures are you in total, they are not separate and depend on each other to make you what you are. I have made my views known about this system and some of the things in it that are very questionable on another post and I see no need to repeat myself. If people want to follow this system then that's up to them.

Well if we look at the first lines of the version you have of verse 5, it doesn't make any sense. Back in 1987, when Li Erh Xian Shi said to me he would teach me the right and true version of his words, I remember him saying when he came to this chapter, " where has straw dogs come from, I never wrote this" At the time I had multiple examples of his words by different translators and so through me he read each one and decided which was nearest and nearest to what he mean't in English. We must also remember that Lao Tzu was a Taoist from the Mao Shan tradition, he spent some years as a young man there, learning from the adepts and hermits that lived on that mountain.

Forgive the pun, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with the "straw Dogs"

You mean: Heaven and Earth are ruthless They see the ten thousand things as part of one whole The wise are therefore ruthless, for they see people as part of the same structure The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form; for the ten thousand things all depend upon it. Like this space, the sage can use its formless qualities, for it yields to whatever, or whoever uses it Hold fast to this and remain at one. There is nothing in chapter 5 that points to the ill treatment of life, it is just saying that Gods and Immortals may exist, but they treat everything the same, so they may seem ruthless in their overseeing of life without preference. Or one could say that the Heavens meaning the forces that come from that direction (Sun etc.) and the Earth are impartial and have no interest in what has evolved in the form of life, so they are ruthless it would seem being both the mother and father of life in their treatment of all life that exists. "straw Dogs" does not exist in this verse or any other.

I am not saying that a Daoist shaman wouldn't do this, there are shamans and there are shamans. Many shamans are not shamans the term is very loosely used to describe many a type of person, whether they really are, or of what tradition, is of great debate. The basic tenant remains; life is sacred and a shaman doesn't need to take life to help another, if they do they have turned to the evil path.

I know this, people do things according to the ways of men but not necessarily to the ways of Heaven. A useless act that drew disgust from the Immortals and no interest in the harvest from those who these people wished to influence.

When I mean a drug I mean the preparation of plants etc to make a drug. The word drug may have connotations with western synthesized medicines, but still means the same whether one is using natural materials to make a medicine for healing or for hallucinogenic purposes. The Chickens life is just as valued as the child's in your example any Daoist shaman would know this for the equality of life is the basic tenant of Daosit teachings. The trouble we have is what is a 'Daoist' shaman? I had to laugh at a thread or link that is going on at present about Chinese Shamanism. To me this person is certainly not a shaman, I came across his site many years ago. He is just using the tools of the external principle and whether he has the power to make them work is another matter. We must look at when shamanism in China first emerged and how it was later incorporated into various aspects of religious Daoism. So the definition of a Daosit shaman must first be established. Now I have been a Daoist shaman for thirty years and the posts on this thread have no resemblance to what I have been taught and practiced for those years by my Immortal Masters. One could say I am more of a sorcerer than a shaman in the sense of what has been described, but I do use 'drugs' to heal people along with the other external techniques. I think there is an unhealthy western interest in the hallucinogenic drugs used by some shamans, that has nothing to do with any spiritual or healing aspects, but more to do with 'head stuff', which can become the focus for some individuals who are drawn to that path. That path can lead to mental illness and many shamans who have gone on trips live tormented lives as the drugs effects alters their mental abilities to anchor themselves to a sense of reality. I hear the supporters of this path immediately protest and why do they protest? Because they themselves have a need this way. I am not saying that a hallucinogenic drug taken or given for the right purposes has not its merits, but it is certainly not the focus in my practice for the reasons I have just stated. Why do some use heroine and some play sport?

Why did shamans of the past and in differing cultures use drugs? Why did some shamans of the past not use drugs? Why did shamans or hermits pick plants and experiment on themselves? Why did shamans use exercises and deep meditation? Why did some shamans never get involved in any animal cruelty in the past involving sacrifice? Why did shamans only stick to listening to the wind, the animals, the trees and some lifted their heads to the sky? Why do some shamans see people in the sky and yet they have never taken any drugs? The list can go on and on, but the answer lies in the path each individual takes and how they view the world.

The obsession never stops till its over and something more shiny is found

When I say Earth is yang I mean if you view it from outer space (yin) all manifests are yang and the space between is yin. But on Earth, the Earth gives life so is yin and is given power and warmth by yang sun. Because all things are made from both yin and yang they can be viewed as either, from differing perspectives. For instance men are generally yang but very often they are yin and visa versa.

The earth is yang the sky is yin the sun is yang the moon at full moon is yang the moon at new moon is yin. Although all of these contain their opposite.

The use and drawing of talismans is the basis of religious and shamanistic healing and exorcism. The talisman contains writing and drawings and sometimes symbols. No ordinary person can draw them, they are usually drawn by shamans with a spirit master holding their hand. A very wide knowledge of talismans has to be acquired over many years and to make the talisman work it must be given power. To see a talisman and Holy water being drawn you can go to my site and see the video on the last page. There you will see me draw talismans with my Immortal master entering into my arms and moving me.

Going back to the title; if we accept that the Dao is almost 'inert' in its creativity and that it is just the underlining principle to what we have and see materially, we can then say that all things arise from principality and find their interwoven connections with each other as they evolve. Now anything beyond the 'almost inertness' of the Dao is made by humans in description. So we cannot say, hear or know the Dao, we can only feel its principality in our hearts, the rest is created by us. So character and virtue are human descriptions of behavior that are part of a need to describe the things around us and how we feel and interact with others. But they are not the principality or a description of it. So we cannot describe something that is inert in its influence as having any particular character or attribute. But we can see the manifestations of that influence. Now I use the word 'inert' to describe the Dao because its probably the only one I can think of, of how to describe it, for it is ALMOST impossible to feel that subtle and all encompassing influence.