flowing hands

Yes it is interesting, I have read many books and visited native American shamans (Hopi) and I do believe that who they believe in are earthly spirits and some spirits of the lower regions of the sky. Now when I say this, deities live in the sky, but they are not Immortals. To hold the title of 'Immortal' means a never ending life unless willing to incarnate to mortal world, usually for a reason. There are many levels of Immortals, many live in the stars that we can see at night. With the title of Immortal comes a responsibility, for an Immortal possess power beyond what we can comprehend.

Actually they exist in Hong Kong and there are many followers in Europe who practice at home from an alter. I'm afraid not to be rude but I'm finding your referencing books very boring to make out that somehow they are far better than anything I could possibly known or say, or my Immortal teachers also very disrespectful. So here ends the monologue, I'm simply not interested, nor do I have the time, in arguing with you OK. With reference to standing like a tree, when Li Erh Xian Shi taught me that verse I had a great realization about what I had been doing, certain things came together.

If you are blessed into the faith of an Immortal master, during the baptism, the shaman who is possessed by the Immortal spirit will draw writing on your body at specific places. These places then will shine out into the spirit world. They are your protection against evil and false spirits.

An Immortal spirit will not normally come to anyone, they are the highest level of spirits that exist. One has to beg them to come and then they make their presence known physically. A lower level spirit may make its presence known to you through dreams or voices and sometimes physically. So if a spirit comes to you it is likely to be an earthly spirit (one that dwells on the earth), as an Immortal lives in the sky and will not come very easily.

When I was in my forties and I practiced a lot of Kung Fu and qigong I had a resting heart rate of 52. When I was a little younger than that and I practiced meditation every day I think my resting heart rate during meditation went down into the mid forties. Now I think my resting heart rate is about 60. I do not meditate anymore so I don't know what it would be. What I was taught is not to force anything and if your breath is taken slowly and long and things that are in your head is the most important bit!

IMO there is nothing wrong with believing in Jesus as a person, he appears to have a lot of sense, though we have no direct writings of anything he ever did or said. I am very suspicious of anything written by other people about, particularly, a spiritual person who are idolized. Exaggeration is normally the norm and then we get fantastic stories about this person due to idolization and personal need of the admirer. What you have said basically stops you believing in anything that I have to say. That's closed minded and you seem to constantly demonstrate to me a stubborn inability to accept that such people like me do exist and that I am here for a reason and no other. Of course there are plenty of things I could tell you to demonstrate my abilities, but you have closed your mind to them. So you must go your way I must keep doing my work in hope that I get through to fertile ground. Like Jesus I am here to offer something pure untainted by money and personal ego. Most spiritual leaders do not 'lower' themselves to rankle with the masses on forums and the like, but it is because I am such a person in reality that I do and you cannot buy my teachings. Just one point which I have discussed at length on this site, I was asked to be a judge at the national Kung Fu and Tai Chi championships. A very well known Tai Chi Master vouched for my authenticity in the arts that I taught. One person on this site had to eat their words as they, as it turned out, had been taught by this person. So those arts which were demonstrated by my students at the time and won medals were taught to me by my Immortal masters and not by any mortal. This is a proven fact if you want one.

Hi Nikolai 1, If you go to my website you can download the true edition of the DDJ that was taught to me 1987 by one of my masters Lao Tzu. You can also read more verses that he wrote while at the gate keepers house that have never come to light, there are I believe many reasons for this, on new verses thread.

It is not just oxygen that we breathe, it is also nitrogen and carbon dioxide. Living things are actually chains of nitrogen cycles. A breathe should be taken as grandmaster p says through the nose and out from the mouth. The breathe should start from the lower abdomen. The lower abdomen extending out, which conversely alters the air pressure in the lungs. Then when breathing out, one should breathe through the mouth and tighten the lower abdomen, pulling in as much as possible. With such practice, which accentuates the natural breathing process, one develops breath from the lower abdomen and not superficially from only the upper neck and chest muscles that are involved with the process of breathing. This breath is the same for qi gong and martial art. I have never heard it called tui na though! Forcing things is against the way, a naturally red face after hot and sustained aerobic exercise, but not from minor relaxed hand moving and breathing, a bit worrying.

Do you think today's China is anything like it was pre-revolution? Most of the real Daoist left post haste, before they were burnt down. Now they dig up whatever is left, but you will find more real Daoism outside of China where it has been preserved. Immortals have no need of money or anything else. Most Temples are funding by voluntary contributions and committee's run the up keep of the temple. Ordinary followers pay money to the committee to help with the upkeep. The same as a school of martial art. Although the sifu may take payment if he was full time teacher, many though worked doing other jobs for pay.

Well let me remind you it was others here who actually started making snide remarks even sending me threatening PMs. A sycophant is a true description of many people on this thread who have shouted me down just because I have offered something different, other than 'wow its great'. I am rather more concerned with what is the truth of the matter. It happens a lot on threads when many people do not like to see certain things about what they may have invested a lot of time and money in. One would say a natural reaction. Your very learned quotes are the things that let you down. They are from others and not your own personal experience. Many of them are completely wrong. As for Master Chuang and Michael Saso, he was a Daoist priest and not a shaman. He performed the rites as to what he had learned from others and from books mainly (I read the book) not from the Immortals. So what you have written bears no essence of truth, just a ritual and a visualization, but in truth, not so. There are many rituals and rites which have become the part of Daoist Cannon and part of the Daoist church, a bit like a lot of religions. Many of these came from shamanism and some came from Chang Tao ling. Now they are all mixed up together with Buddhism as well, and have been for hundreds if not thousands of years. So various masters add their bit and their imaginations as to the reality of Immortals and spirits, especially in the Daoist church where one can't move for rites and so called spirits who have to be constantly appeased; sorry if it offends you Taomeow, its just a load of nonsense. But in truth many do not exist or do they exist in the direction you say. Learned of many books you may be, knowledgeable of the truth you are not. Judge not, lest thee be judged. Remember I have been taught the pure way, the way of Immortals, not the way of ordinary men. No book have I followed, no course have I been on, but I have made myself like a tree, humbled myself before the Heavens and begged to be taught. When I first started, I was lucky enough to be able to draw the fa fu and fa shui the first time I went into the Temple. Many try for over a year but the Immortal never comes, I wanted to learn the Immortal's martial arts. So for two years nearly every day I said my prayer, looked up to the east with my arms open like a tree and begged. I would stand there perhaps for over an hour each time, begging until I could stand no longer and my arms would drop with pain. After two years of doing this, one day the Monkey God came to me, he moved my body powerfully and stood me in the horse stance and said "I'm going to teach you my own personal Grand Ultimate Fist". So I started to learn and I went on to learn all sorts of styles of martial art over the years. I learn't medical qigong and TCM, self cultivation, exorcism and all sorts of things and above all what Immortals exist and don't exist in the Heavens. Now there are many Immortals that people have never heard of, why? Why then is it that people believe in Immortals and spirits that don't exist? You seem to know all the answers so please educate us, look it up in one of your books. If you can't, stand like a tree for two years and beg to know the truth, if you don't believe me.

I think you have used an unfortunate turn of phrase to describe the teacher/student relationship as "enamored". And you use it not in a positive way, but more in a mocking way. The normal relationship is that of a father/grandfather in terms of Trad. Kung Fu. There is a loyalty there that we seldom see in the money orientated West systems of teaching martial arts etc. A loyalty that goes beyond the word "enamored", we don't just flower hop from one sifu to the other, just to get what we want out of them. They normally won't give what we want anyway and can see us coming a mile off. I have no problem with Jesus in the slightest, but I do have a problem with someone who says they are teaching Daoist alchemy but have the tradition of the church and Jesus in their hearts. These things do not go together. Not that Jesus really would have anything to do with modern churches any way, I think he would be appalled.

Because we have lost it we need to find it again. The world would be a different place if we all found it!

Verse 89

Ok You will have to forgive my use of some words as I can't really find any other to express what Li Erh said to me. Stosh and MH can continue their chat after they have been educated!!!! Verse 88

I think we are being a bit picky. Li Eh actually pre-dates fuxi, he was an Immortal for many thousands of years before he incarnated in about 600BCE. The term 'enlightened' although was first used by Buddhists, has now become a norm in Daoism to mean 'realized person' (Xian Ren).

Of course if you are enlightened you will posses spiritual power, If you are not then you have to rely on the Immortal Master to give it to you if he/she thinks you are a suitable person. How do think that you can communicate and control the spiritual realm without spiritual power? Human or mortals are limited by being just that. The power that a human can posses is limited and has to be. The living structure of a body can only take so much power. But an Immortal is not living in a mortal body, their power is unlimited.

What is real and not real depends on where you stand and to what lens you use to see through.

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion, but whatever you do, don't go saying what I am and what I am not when you don't know anything about me or what I have done or not done in my life OK:) What I mean by its like xmas is that it has become something that people do but really it has very little meaning in reality; it is part of the superstitious culture that has become embedded in folk Daoism. Incense was never used in Daoist/bon po Shamanism, it has been brought into its use by the spread of Buddhism and Hinduism from India. So like my sect we have a cross between the two and we use incense sometimes but I was told by the Immortal Master that it was not necessary and this is where it comes from. The pure path is 'Dao xin'. No incense. No money, keep it separate from spiritual path, don't sell your teachings.

The burning of paper money is like giving xmas presents in the west. The burning of incense came from India and is not a Daoist thing. If anything was to be offered on an alter, a candle, flowers or fruit and when the Immortal comes to the shaman and he/she is possessed, a cup of tea. The Immortal spirit is already 'realized' he/she requires nothing else, but will ask of something like a cup of tea because this is the Chinese custom to offer a 'guest' to share. So what does the Immortal master require from us? A sincere heart. Back to Jerry Johnson, writing books and doing courses is just about making money and is not real teaching, you learn the letter but something is missing. Many years ago I used to run courses all over the country for money. One good thing that came out of this is I fed my family and the students actually got real teachings from the Immortals; something very unique. But after some time because it was my source of income, I became focused on needing to make the money. Realising this I gave up, for I knew that this was the wrong focus and I needed to treasure what I had been taught and not give it away to any old Tom, Dick or Harry just because they paid me to, who wouldn't necessarily have valued what I had taught them. I believe that Jerry Johnson's teachers valued what they taught him and most of the stuff contained in the above courses the vast majority of people at even high levels will not be truly able to achieve. For instance I can teach people all of the things on that course, but I can't. Why? Because they don't have the power to realize that teaching. To have the power for instance, to see and recognize evil spirits etc., comes from the Immortal master who gives you his power. Will the Immortal master give up his power for any Tom dick or Harry? answer, NO. Its a money making exercise only. You will learn the letter and that's all.

A pure spirit looks after the shaman and there is no depletion!

I'll go back to my original point. By definition a Daoist believes and is a completely different mind set, to any other religious beliefs. Jerry Johnson says that he was brought up a Christian and that he still has Jesus in his heart. Now I could write a book about all sorts of different practices, expounding on various things within them, go through the motions of doing them and learning them, receive certificates etc., but actually when it came to the real core I didn't fully understand what all these things that I have learn't really meant. Sure through practicing I had achieved a high level in whatever I did, but I was limited by my persuasion. Now a Daoist doesn't start off with any belief in any God or spiritual leader. The starting point of their pursuit is the Dao. If we are talking about Daoist alchemy, yes I'm sure Jerry Johnson knows all the techniques, but does he know the core? If someone interviewed me, you would not here me say anything about having anything but the Dao in my heart, even though I am the student of three Immortal Masters. The core is the very essence of cultivation. Likewise you have not said anything that shows me that you have the slightest idea about what you are doing. Words and techniques are very easy to learn, the core is not and that is why Li Erh wrote a book about trying to find it. It is very elusive. Having Jesus in your heart certainly will not help in the slightest.

Complete nonsense, at this very time I am for the bums here begging for further verses of the DDJ. I have offered up many insights to various things on this site for free. You really don't know what you are talking about. A shaman may serve the community, he/she also lived alone on the mountains and then visited the local community where they taught their skills or did healing for return of goods. This allowed them to go back up the mountain. There is a traditional saying in spiritual and kung fu practices about going up and coming down the mountain. In my years a s a shaman I have healed and done all sorts of things for people and I would serve for free, for it is the Immortal Master who decides whether the person should pay not the shaman. In temples today, people who receive healing from a temple shaman usually pay by giving money to the temple committee for the up keep of the temple. The shaman receives nothing but spiritual merit. He/she follows the Daoist saying of looking for no profit but for serving others. Of course plastic shamans exist today, who live in fancy houses surrounded by wealth and think it is fine to collect material possessions and wealth through what they do. They delude themselves into thinking that they are spirit led and delude their customers out of their money. A pure spirit does not require any payment, conversely an impure spirit does.

How does one dissolve into the infinite space, if one does not even know what wuji is? Is this really only words and is one's experience of various states different from another's? Isn't this just misleading; the blind leading the blind. How do you know what state you have entered and is it the state that Jerry Johnson has experienced or wants you to experience? Could what he calls wuji be completely different to what at least ten others may experience for instance? Now the verse that Li Erh Xian Shi taught me as your example is telling people to make themselves like trees. Now a true cultivator will understand this and recognize why this symbolism is so powerful. Now If you don't know what Li Erh means by this and you can't find anything in Jerry Johnson's books, then IMO I suggest to you to sell his books and give the money to a good cause and do what Li Erh says. You may then begin to understand.

I've had this same question in the post I started about the DDJ being a shamanistic treatise. Have a look at this for your answer. Sorry not brushing you off, but don't have the time to get into it.)

This of course is your assumption and shamanism doesn't violate wu wei at all! How on Earth can it be a athiest document???