flowing hands

Sorry CD I don't agree! This member is a devout Christian and by accepting that teaching he is merely dabbling with ideas that he can find in other religions and philosophies to bolster up his own belief. When he is pushed, 'Jesus' is all encompassing, no impartiality there. The translation that you have used is not the right meaning, this chapter talks of deep metaphysical understandings about life, about looking at life an non life from a different perspective. Remember the basis of Dao(ism) is fundamentally different to any other belief system. One cannot be a Christian as well as a Dao(ist), they are by their very nature completely different.

Before there were words and concepts there was the Dao, rid yourself of concepts and words and find the Dao!

Well its not just out there; as Li Erh describes, its within you and all around you. Every cell contains it, every interaction has it. It binds all things together whether it is matter or non matter. The list could go on endlessly. Nice to see a new poster on my favorite Book!

Forget the concepts, feel it in your heart, there lies a true understanding!

A deity is a lower level spiritual entity, they do not live in the Heavenly realm. They are respected though by many people. To achieve the level of 'Immortal' though requires a much higher level of spiritual attainment. An Immortal has immense levels of power; the higher the spiritual attainment, the more power the Immortal has. The Three Pure ones are more to do with cosmological symbolism, although all three Immortal exist. The Jade Emperor's history stretches back a long way to a time before humans existed. Many spiritual entities existed before the formation of our earth and so the Jade Emperor's history is similar. Although the Chinese portray him as of Chinese origin, he is in fact of no ethical origin, but can come to shamans as any ethical state or form. I have begged him to come to me many times. There was a time in the history of the earth when great entities from other parts of the universe came to our earth, some with not good intentions. So the Immortals from our world did battle with these entities. The story of the formation of Immortal bond brothers come from this period as they combined their skills and power to overcome the invaders. There lies some stories!!

That's right.... but the DDJ does point us to be able to be at one with the Dao and to becoming an Immortal; the highest state of life. Lao Tzu, like many others was discovered to have become Immortal, (not surprisingly) so prayers etc. were established to honour him. Before this though Shamans such as myself called upon all sorts of spiritual deities to do various services for the communities.

Well a very long post and I think some misconceptions. The Immortals in Heaven do not know of the beginning of all things, ie why there was a big bang that created all dimensions, form, sound and light. But they know that it happened many billions of years ago. The concept of ONE GOD who created all things is just nonsense and a human conception. There are literally hundreds of Gods and Goddesses in the Heavenly realm, some came into being at the very beginning of all things. Some are relatively young by comparison. At one time no one God controlled what happened in Heaven and what the Gods did, but eventually there came a time when wu wei needed to installed and not relied upon by each individual God to be ultimately wise. So a single God was chosen to make sure all others followed that wisdom. Yu whang Shan Ti was chosen and now any interference with the world must be passed by him. There was never one creator, all Gods are given life by the same forces that we are. Taoism has its roots deeply held in Shamanism, which is neither only philosophical or religious, it is both and should never be divided. In Taoism there is not a concept called God, but there is a concept of being able to be at one with the Tao and its creativity, leading to Immortality. The idea of God and Immortality are different ideas. Immortals are not 'omnipresent' they live in ultimate states, being able to resume form and then return to no form. They live not to serve the world, but are simply 'there', at one with the creation of all things unable to ever die. They hold no concepts of sin, good or bad, or any of the human concepts that we place on ourselves for various reasons. As we understand it 'God' does not exist in Taoism.

Let me add my few pennies in!! Anyone who says that they have opened their 3rd eye without the help of an Immortal master is not opening their 3rd eye, they are doing something else. The third eye is a spiritual practice and is the basis of true enlightenment. On this forum I have not seen anyone who displays the merits of anyone who is truly enlightened. The third eye is a physical phenomenon, a tool that must be taught by those who are enlightened (Immortal) and carefully practiced to avoid misinterpretation of any images or visions that one might see, which can be experienced without third eye opening anyway. As I have said on many posts before the mind is our most power-full tool we posses, many are controlled by it, fooled by it, but not many have mastered it. Drugs just alter our own individual perception of life, but do not give us universal vision or understanding. Simply put, gaining spiritual 'merit' is a way of self cultivating ones self and it is by ones self, letting go of negative aspects of our behavior etc. that leads us to greater understanding and gain greater spiritual merit for our spirit to the next life. Like it or not there is a control in the spirit world that will give power to those that have gained in merit of self cultivation for obvious reasons. One would not give a child a nuclear bomb to play with and so one wouldn't give vast amounts of power to an uncultivated spirit!!

Here's my penny worth, The guy demonstrating has trained in external arts he only uses external energy. Internal arts develop a different body and the force comes from within. One first rule of martial art he has broken; never cover your own eyes with your own hand for obvious reasons, never use one bone to block, only if it is rolling onto two, for obvious reasons. never block inside leaving your opponent with a free hand; a very bad technique and the wrong application of the form.

This is what makes the Dao so great!

I shouldn't worry about it! The truth is very different to what is written. There is no such thing as sin, good and bad are concepts only and used by humans for control over others. Remember the Bible was written by men who lacked understanding of the nature of all things and so what is actually the truth of the matter has been shrouded in rhetoric and misunderstanding. There is no such thing as sin, there is only the way.

I don't want to be 'anti Christian' but there seems to be far too many Christians on the Taoist section of this board, trying to pervert the course of proper Taoist discussion and mocking the beliefs of Taoists. Perhaps its time I went on a Christian Forum and talked about the "Tao and only Tao", might be good fun, I could accuse them of being an "apprentice of 'God or Jesus" like this was a joke and try and belittle them also. I could say how I went to the mountain and became at one with the Tao and the Immortal Master was there with me and say how I know that God doesn't exist as the Bible was just written by ordinary men (no women of course or homosexuals!) and it has been used to control people ever since. Perhaps I might even get banned from the site for speaking the truth.....the truth is always difficult to swallow.

I am just the same, Firefox never lets me log out of TTB's but Google does!!!!

Yes there is a correct understanding of emptiness. Combined with Dao Xin, enlightenment is obtainable. Once enlightenment is obtained, the third eye can be cultivated. The statement by Turtle Shell quoted from the Bible is insinuating more things do do with ethical and moral behaviour, that children are untainted enough to be pure to enter the gates of Heaven. The emptiness and understanding of a Daoist cultivator goes beyond the 'new born babe' symbolism.

I don't think you really know anything about what you are talking about otherwise you would not have to go so low to be snide. This is the first time I have talked to you and you have been snide on both communications. What does that say about you? Lots of things

Sadly the wrong understanding of emptiness! Plus the fact that we do not know that it was Jesus who said this.

Lets go back to the thread. A Daoist cultivator/alchemist would pursue a path that is at one with the Dao. The pursuit of emptiness, of letting go of all that one had learned etc., until one is truly open. That means that in pursuing this path the teachings of Jesus, Bhudda, Mohamed etc must be completely ignored. Now a Daoist cultivator would of course have read Lao Tzu DDJ, where there are guides for them to achieve this highest state. But even then once this state is achieved, no teachings can surpass such a level of cultivation. So anyone who wants to cultivate themselves actually would begin by letting go of any moral/ethical teachings from any spiritual teacher, give up any idea of God, etc., until they are like the Dao. So if you want to cultivate yourself in a real way, don't listen or follow anyone in your heart, but empty yourself of everything. There you will find true enlightenment and understanding. Having Jesus or anyone else in your heart will only cloud you and hinder your path. True cultivators avoid such things. Lao Tzu gives us great pointers as to what we should do and hold in our hearts; it is not him, nor is it Jesus or God nor anyone else. So to be a true cultivator one has to be at one with the Dao or whatever word one wishes to call it. Remember we can't call this God or Jesus or even the divine, for with these names come great moral and ethical reasoning, such mind sets already have blocked true emptiness and realization and true cultivation/alchemy.

I think you need to look a little more carefully...................... That depends on ones perspective, a Daoist is a Daoist and there are fundamental reason why a Daoist would not believe in other religions, this is all I am saying. Most Daoist are not religious. Perhaps you need to have a go at h.urhiar also, this thread is not about Jesus! But Dr Johnson has made a significant revelation in saying that "he has Jesus in his heart", when he purports to being a Daoist. This is not my personal view of religion. If one is talking about internal alchemy and Dr Johnson has written a $200 book on the subject, if ones knows a little about internal alchemy then all what he is saying hasn't a shred of credence. This is very significant to the thread I don't think I am getting off the thread, I am many steps ahead of you! Showing a snide attitude does not become you.

No he would have the Dao in his heart and nothing else: 'Dao Xin'. He would also know that there are fundamental differences between Daoism and other religious beliefs. Jesus who you have a passion for, could be just a myth like the rest of the Bible, there is no evidence that he existed let alone did any of the things he is attributed to have done. Your belief is based on what? Chinese whispers with prejudice against women; the whole history of Christian missionaries is of abuse of others cultures and beliefs....in the name of Jesus of course. I don't think I need to go into vast quantities of evidence to prove my point. Seen any Daoist go into other countries rape and pillage those peoples, force them to go to church or starve, be imprisoned or murdered etc.etc........short answer, NO Keep your Jesus rubbish to yourself and don't take the mickey out of a genuine spiritual master.

If Dr Johnson understood the very nature of the Dao, he would not be a Christian, a Bhuddhist. nor would he have Jesus in his heart.

Chapter 5 whats it about? Formlessness............form, the two are the same, each is dependent on the other to exist. Formlessness/emptiness exists in form and form exists in emptiness. The key to understanding ones own existence and form and the form of other life. We grow and form a substance around emptiness, emptiness exists within us.

I have made my opinions and miss-givings about this system openly and frankly on this board about the way that people off the street can walk in and the Taoist master make them a 'student' and so called connected to Immortals. My last posts on this subject were met with insults and derision from various XYP members, even insulting my Divine master. I decided that enough was enough and I'd given enough of my time on this board, so I haven't come on again and do not intend to post on here again after this. But I wanted to further elucidate some experiences I have had that concern this cult. It is a cult for no Taoist master would teach, whether they were mortal or Immortal someone who was not ready to be taught, who had not been properly tested or considered, both physically, mentally and morally. But the XYP do, the numbers of people are more important than anything else it would seem. My experience was this: I was about to go to sleep when a communication was sent to me, it came in words and vision. It was feathery and a tunnel and the voice said to me, 'do not interfere with us Flowing Hands'. (I had previously expressed my concerns on this board about XYP) I replied; 'I am within my rights to say what is right.' The voice repeated its statement and added a threat. The master who had established this communication began to withdraw at that instance when the threat was made. I sent my weapon down his pathway to Indonesia and stabbed him in the head, just to let him know I wasn't to be threatened or silenced. It was only a tap so I did not harm him. Some weeks later Lei Gong the black faced thunder deity comes to my door. He is very sheepish and eventually says that he has been commanded to do me harm. (Thunder magic) I say to him 'well you better get on with it'. I drew my weapon there upon he vanished saying 'I mean you no harm.' The first and the second incidences may not be linked, but it is highly probable. A member on this board when I was trying to give my point of view and to express my miss-givings, wrote that I should be completely ignored. A system including the master should be open to criticism without threat or insults......this is one aspect that concerns me. The mind/brain is our most powerful organ in our body, it is little used to anywhere near its capacity. It is very easy for us to be duped into thinking lots of things. Our minds can make us feel and do things that we think are impossible, it can very easily lead us astray. The Immortals do not teach mortals very easily, nor do they interfere with the world. To get them to teach one must prove oneself worthy of their time. With respect, Wu Shi Flowing Hands Student of Hua Tuo Xian Shi, Li Erh Xian Shi, Chi Tien Da Shen

To be fair, xyp do advertise for students and hold 'initiation' days to whoever turns up. This is a Taoist Forum and although anyone can contribute and have their own point of view, most Taoist do not accept that there is just one God. If you want to discuss Christian world view and Biblical interpretation according to what was written in that book, then I think you're on the wrong forum and there are many forums where you can exalt the virtues of Jesus till you are blue in the face, but in my opinion, here you are in for a horrible ride if you continue with Jesus and one God theory. There are Taoist on this forum who have difficulty with me, let alone believe in one God and Jesus.

You misread me I am an ordinary man who was an Immortal in my last life. I reincarnated to do the work of Heaven to tell people what is to come so we have a choice. I am taught by my Divine masters through a traditional framework that has been established for thousands of years. What I do is no different to many other traditional shamans, apart from the fact that the Immortal makes his/her presence known physically, a bit like a medium, whereas many shamans have to travel in their own minds to their spirit teacher. There lies the complication, one involves the mind, which can so easily be deceived, and the other involves a very strong and powerful presence manifested in the physical world. No single God exists as in the Christian etc. religion, we are all dependent whether we are a God or a living thing on the universal life force. This gives life to all that we see and don't see.

Means I'm not needed anymore; no nuclear war to come!!!!