flowing hands

On a more serious note, when you do see my full profile and learn more about me, see me in the media you will know there is big trouble coming very shortly. Lets hope I can melt back into non existence and not known by anyone, the world may be a slightly safer place to live.

Hey you guys get a life! My spiritual name is Flowing Hands, if you met me in person this is what you would call me and no other name other than a honorary title. Black Elk is called Black Elk, because that was his spiritual name as a N. American Indian holyman. When he was born his parents may have called him something else but once he had taken up the chununpa, he was then called Black Elk. So 30 years ago when I became a Daoist Holyman I was given a name to be styled by, so you have my true name which is far more important than any given name at birth. By the way I suggested that if xyp teacher wanted less suspicion about his/hers actions, then they should give more info about their lineage and teachers and what they are called. This information you have about me, as I am proud to be a student of those teachers and to follow a very long line of teaching.

Hey don't be a bully! My name is Flowing Hands and info about me is on my website OK

I think there is a mix up here; as a shaman I do not need to enter any other state to communicate with the Immortals. They have accepted me as their 'student', so they sometimes can be talking to me while I'm walking down the street. I do not need to beg them to come to me for them to communicate with me. I am their student, they are investing a great deal of time and energy into teaching me. After all I have a world to save and my credibility is very important. When I first started this certainly did not happen, but then time and teaching makes people more aware and more understanding about things, so they then begin to teach as much as possible. The Immortals make you aware of many things. One of the first practices I was taught was mediation as well as martial arts. Now for some years I do not need to meditate. The way I was taught increased my awareness to 'enlightenment', being baptized by another shaman is a simple ritual where any followers are baptized into the faith. I was one of several at the time. Of course shamanism was the first form of Taoism. The yin/yang symbol comes from shamanism. Most of the practices of Chang Tao ling etc. have their roots in shamanistic practices as well as TCM, martial arts etc. Chang Tao Ling started a different system, but many of the rites come from the ancient wu. I think your teacher should give his name and his background. In trad. practices sifu's and masters are all about their lineage and it is most important. If a sifu does not do this they generally are not trusted to have a good reputation or lineage. Ie the sifu must stand by what he has been taught and the system he has inherited, if it is genuine.

Any living thing can become an Immortal, some Immortals may have been animals and just transformed themselves into human form. The teaching you have been given lacks fundamental understanding. No I connect with only the Immortal. No I am completely different I do not need to self or otherwise trance myself to communicate with the Immortals. Tang ki go into trance, they were called 'mediums' because that's all they could do. It is very rare for me to go into a trance because it is not necessary as I communicate with the Immortals without doing so. Now after 30 years I know when they are talking to me; they do not need to make their presence known to me physically as well. Tang ki are only in some temples, others have shamans like me. I have watched many shamans at work and seen the tang ki also. They go into a trance of the same Immortal differently. Shamans are rarer, Tang ki seem to be all over the place. Some are of the left (hetrodox) and some are of the right (orthodox).

Well, whatever faith you belong to it is best to go to a 'blessed', 'open eye' temple. There you can be assured that when you ask or beg to be taught nothing evil will be coming near you. When ztao refers to temple tang ki, these are not shamans they are quite a new development of mostly 'self' possession, nearer to the s. American shamans, who may take drugs to enter into an altered state. I have watched several clips of these so called mediums and was struck by how different they are to me even if they are supposedly possessed by the same Immortal. I watched a guy supposedly possessed by the Monkey God and it was nothing like I have ever experienced. I think it is more to do with showmanship and ego than reality. Many people want to be mediums as it represents a higher level and standing in the community. So fakers abound unfortunately. These people think that the Monkey has to move and play tricks, due to the fictional story of the 'journey to the west', but actually the Monkey God is a very sophisticated and talented person and really not like you would imagine a monkey to be. But then he is a realized Immortal and not just a monkey. An ordinary monkey may do all sorts of different actions and behaviors, but the Monkey God is certainly beyond this. For human to human learning of power, find a Taoist master of a long lineage that takes its teachings from the Taoist cannon. Again don't expect to learn anything very quickly or easily. For Immortal to human look for a shaman like me not a temple faker, the shaman will be baptized and able to draw fa fu, fa shui and do all sorts of other things if they are taught properly. There are quite a few around but they hide themselves and don't go on the internet, unlike me, who wants to save a world! Again a difficult way to learn and no guarantee of ever being successful. Most of them may be lay shamans and live in an ordinary way, this is the way Immortals prefer to teach people. For spirit of the earth to human there are many paths and trap falls. I don't really know how it works with other faiths, like Indonesian spiritual paths, but again it is quite possible that the same things appear in those faiths. North American shamanism is still alive and if you can find a good one, not a plastic one, they can teach you the way of the chunumpa (pipe) and it will be real. They believe in spirits of the earth, not Immortals, although some of these spirits live in the sky. Remember the title of 'Immortal' is the highest level of spiritual achievement, above that of any other faith. People can try begging the Immortals to come but they must have a ba sin fu (an amulet drawn by a shaman) on their person for protection when they are begging.

It really makes no difference to me in the slightest. What I am solely concerned with is what is actually happening. If Li Erh said to me I'm taking on a bunch of people through another sect then what has it got to do with me? Every day Li Erh probably takes on a new follower from many of the temples in S. Asia, where he is a bond brother to other Immortals. He also may take on a novice shaman from time to time. This has nothing to do with me either. The Immortal masters take on many followers and teach them to certain levels and very rarely they take on a 'inside' student which they heavily give their time to. The Dao is far reaching, unbiased, and unprejudiced. Those who follow the Dao reflect this. That's what I feel, what the Immortal masters do is none of my business, I am happy to receive their teachings and to follow them faithfully as I have done for more than thirty years. No this it is not shamanism, the giving of a fa by one human to another human down from one master to a student. Shamanism involves the relationship and teaching of a spirit master to a human. There is a great difference. Well lets put it another way, you are given a 'power' which involves the changing of your perception of your mind and body. You can call it what you want, it amounts to the same thing. The Dao treats all things equally; that is the good and the bad, therefore sincerity and honesty may be seen to be more spiritual by moralists than the opposite, but a Daoist would see them all as part of one whole and so a sage does not give more preference to one or the other. A bad man can come into the temple and still be able to draw the fa fu, because this is an opportunity for learning and he may tread a different path once he has seen a different way of being. Or he may not and use his power for selfish gain. There are no set rules, but great learning by having no rules!

It can be used to do many things, it needs a command to tell it what you want it to do; therefore this is why a talisman is used either physically written, or it can be carved and then used as part of a ritual, or it can be drawn in the air or on the floor. In the air one must posses the fa to do this. I am presuming that you are referring to initiation from one human to another. An Immortal can see what the fa contains and any bad influences can be neutralized.

There are many branches of Daoism and differing teachings. These have been added to by one master to another along the generations. Many sects, notably ones that have their lineage form monastic mountain temples pass on their teachings by 'initiation'. Some are given talismans, some are hit and some are given the 'power' by hand on parts of the body. Most of these sects are involved in ritual and rites as well as martial arts, nei gong/ qi gong etc. The masters of these various sects all have received the Thunder magic training pertaining to their sect. It is primarily used for healing and exorcism but is often used to do harm. I do not do thunder magic, although I know how to do it. I come from a completely different way of doing things. When you are 'initiated' into XYP, I assume that the master is giving you his 'fa' and this 'fa' has been passed down through time from one master to another, even though a new sect may have been established, the 'fa' remains. This extra power (fa) that is put into the your body may have all sorts of historical 'commands'. Some of these commands may date back hundreds if not thousands of years to the ancient wu. Now I assume that you are taught to meditate and to do certain exercises, yes? These exercises are taught to you to help you have control over this new power that has mixed in with your own. This power has the ability to make you see and feel all sorts of strange and wonderful things that you never experienced before, when you concentrate. It has mixed with your own being. It can make you hear voices, make you feel wonderful, make strange feelings and sensations in your body, many different experiences. But that is what it is and nothing else. As you are taught more and gain more control over your senses and this power can be added to, it again can be enhanced by more spiritual practices that ignite your very essence. So some sects believe that the celestial beings inhabit our organs and so they can be summoned and they can guide us. The ways of summoning these celestial beings and tapping into their knowledge, some sects believe that it is through rites and rituals that they will achieve this. Now I will tell you my experience, which is different but has some similarities. When I was successful and the Immortal master came to me and drew the fa fu and fa shui, I was told that I must beg for this twice a month. The Immortal master was giving me his 'fa' (power). Now as an apprentice shaman, I really didn't know much or have much experience only a faith. The 'fa' that the Immortal master had given me has a command in it. The power mixes with my being and I become aware of the power inside of me. Because the power that we are given is so powerful it can so easily fool oneself into believing that lots of different things are happening. For the first year of my apprenticeship I could not mentally communicate with the Immortal master, only physically. So I felt somewhat at a loss as to what was happening to me sometimes. Another shaman I met said to me when I described what was happening, "your fa can fool you very easily when you are inexperienced, you will get to know when it is the Immortal master teaching you and when it is not as you mature and become experienced. Because the Immortal masters fa is so powerful, once inside ones body it can make your body move, experience and do all sorts of things when one recites the Immortal masters name to come, or concentrate and let it go. It is his/her fa so it will react after all to its owners name. If you look at the video of me begging the Immortal master to draw the talisman, you will see my muscles twitching with the fa that is inside of my body. I can draw the amulet myself without the Immortal moving my arm but I don't, I wait for the Immortal to come. The fa inside of me is the Immortals, so when I beg him to come and concentrate on his fa that is inside of me, it reacts very physically and wants to take over my arm and draw the amulet and apply the power, which I have done many times if needed. The Immortal master gives the fa to his students, so that they can draw a healing amulet in an emergency, without waiting for the Immortal master to come to do it. In some sects the Immortal does not give his/her fa and the wu has to wait for the Immortal master to come to draw the amulet. Now I guess that this is what is happening to all of you. The power that has been given to you is making all sorts of mind and body tricks that really are only manifestations of your own deep subconscious minds. Remember how powerful people like Mckenna are at using peoples own minds to do things. When I first read on ttb's that you were initiated into being a student of Tai Sung Lao Gin (Li Erh Xian Shi) one of my masters, I begged him of the truth of this. He laughed and said what do you think after all of your 30 years of our teaching? I replied they are just fooling themselves? 'Exactly' he replied and gave the reason as in my last post, as to how difficult it is to be taught by an Immortal. So it is up to you what you believe and what you feel is happening to you, but I have your best interests at heart. I have a wealth of experience in this field and I'm interested in you progressing in a real way and not being fooled by the fa of a Taoist master, who may be under the wrong impression himself? Or he may wish to spread his teaching in this way for reasons that are undisclosed to you. Remember some of the most terrible sects of fringe religions say they have good intentions. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the XYP are evil, but one must understand why and question.

This is right, as I said at the time, you of all the xyp people conducted yourself like a Taoist should, that is to be proud of. I am more than happy for anyone who has found happiness in whatever they feel is right for them; don't misunderstand my intentions. I am not saying that my way is the only way, I am questioning the validity of what is being told to xyp people and how they are being taught and where this is coming from. There are many other sects that believe in different Immortals who have different ways of doing things; its just the different ways of the original master. Some sects draw five amulets some like mine only two. But the established way of teaching and access out of all those sects is the same. The Immortal chooses you after a period of testing. Some go to the temple and can never receive teaching some can, this has always been the way. An Immortal is a realized mortal, who has gained Immortality through hard work and self realization. They are not simply going to give it away and teach you because you turn up to a hall. Don't kid yourself. Its like a bunch of people turn up at a hall and say 'hey you can become the student of Flowing Hands, learn lots of magic, martial arts of the Gods and all manner of special things' and some guy asks where is Flowing Hands?, has he even been asked whether he wants to do this? To which the organizers have to say no. So Immortals like Tai Sung Lao Gin, who are top Immortals all of a sudden have new students he never asked for or even knows who they are. Do you think he cares? Do you think he will turn up? Short answer definitely not. There is the very large hole in what you are doing, as I have expressed many times. Don't get me wrong again, I wish the best for all people and all things that live, for here lies a path to value life and each other and the end of war and destruction. My intentions are honorable.

If you knew about how different Taoist masters use thunder magic to do harm to even an enemies armies, let alone an individual, then you would understand. Most Mao Shun sects have a thunder talisman that is carved out of wood, stone or something else. The ritual is known to high Taoist masters and then can be used to command the thunder deity/s to do their bidding. Deities can be commanded to do the bidding of humans, unlike Immortals. Deities are not Immortals and are lower level spiritual beings. Thunder magic is usually used by high Taoist when they wish to kill or harm. There are many cases where Taoist have died as a result of thunder magic. For reference read Michael Saso's book on Taoist master Chuang for some insight. I have not bothered to find out whether Lei Gong was sent by XYP master or an associated master, but he was commanded to do this job by a Taoist Master in Indonesia. I have no enemies, non that I know of!!! Lei gong did not fear me, he feared my weapon. My weapon was given to me by an Immortal and is a very rare thing if not unique in the Heavens, before it was given to my temporary care.

Ok I've edited out my posts so I haven't derailed the thread, continue on with XYP.

hmm not quite sure about you!