flowing hands

I think you are using the wrong word to describe a certain state in cognitive activity. Wu wei literally means 'no action'. Its use in Daoism by Li Erh is to do with a deep understanding of the interconnection between things. A wise person takes active and aware perception of things and through realization takes 'no action' that would change the natural order of things. So prevents imbalance. What you are describing is to do with Dao Xin practices, or should I say one of the common tools within this practice, which doesn't necessarily lead to wu wei.

A Daoist is someone who doesn't know they are a Daoist. They are a doer of their thoughts and have insight into what is really going on and act accordingly. They understand the core and nature of things and so walk their path with this acquired wisdom. They understand the great magic and beauty of all life and all its different ways, they understand the very principle that nourishes all life and practice it. They understand the balance of life and death, so don't interfere. So many people get caught up in the philosophizing thoughts and tools that can lead to cultivation, but miss the main point and the spirit of the Dao.

Wu wei is not meditation!

I've got to agree with you Stigweard, both Philips and Gary are not using fa jin in these videos. They really are poor examples. Real fa jin does not use any of the body's momentum or force. The issuer of the fa will be completely still. To demonstrate real fa jin take away the human subject and put a heavy object to be moved. I have seen so many so called masters demonstrate their fa jin to weak and receptive students, that its become a joke and ruining what is a high practice of trad. Chinese martial arts.

'jin' is a part of Dao, just as one evolves ones understanding and practice of Dao, one also does the same for developing 'jin'. Jin is an effect one gets from practice, but like understanding of the Dao, one has to do the right things for it to be achieved. One could practice say tai chi for a lifetime, but never develop jin, just as one can meditate for a lifetime but never really understand Dao. Jin has specific exercises to develop it, Dao has hundreds if not thousands of lifetimes to develop it!!!

Dealing with others is sometimes our greatest test. Dealing with ourselves perhaps even a bigger one! We all fail, without failure how can there ever be growth and success! Learn from your mistakes and move forward.

Well, its damn difficult being who I am. Most people would ignore me, many think I'm crazy and a lot of TB's just humor me out of politeness! But I feel that if anyone was to read my posts they would see that I am revealing more and more greater understanding and insight. Of course I leave a lot out, for the secrets of the way must only be revealed to those of a truly pure heart. I am still hanging in there and will in the coming years make great effort to stop the nuclear war starting in less than seven years. I do not expect people to treat me with respect or to believe what I say, that would be asking far too much. Those that follow the Dao ask very little of people, but have faith with both the followers of Dao and the non followers of Dao. One can never offend Heaven; a sage is beyond offense or praise, so he follows the way of Heaven. 'Working without taking credit'. So no offense has ever been taken. I am here just to share and to understand others, the real people whom I must influence will never be on TTB's, this influence will take a different tack.

I think to mix the words up of God and Dao is the beginning of misunderstanding. From there, all sorts of diverging paths go away from the Dao. Although Li Erh may have said that the Dao is indefinable, un-namable etc. he also said that it can be found, that it has substance and form. Therefore lets not cloud the issues with western terms that have so many connotations such as 'God', lets leave them out. Such concepts as 'God' did not come into Daoist thinking and world view. 'Immortals' did, these are completely different to the term 'God'. 'God' also refers to a singularity, the Dao does not. The Dao can mean so many things, and can be applied to wisdom and skill based practices, of achieving the ultimate perfection in that process. So we have the Dao of fighting, the Dao of archery, the Dao of writing... etc etc. We have Dao xin which is the way of spiritual cultivation. We never have the Dao of 'God'. We never see Li Erh talk about "dwelling in the infinite and feel the 'God' in your heart." Understanding the beginning and concept of what Dao is from Li Erh's time and view will give far greater understanding. Putting ones own perspective will surely cause complete misunderstanding. This is one reason why I started the thread about the DDJ being a shamanistic treatise, because people generally look upon Li Erh's work from a perspective that they have been told to or how they have been brought up. The translators have their own take and we then add our own when reading. Somewhere there is the truth, but shrouded in mismatch words and conditioning.

How can you study a monumental work without knowing your history, knowing culture and what has been retained about the period in time when Li Erh wrote the DDJ?

No it is not unique thinking, many cultures like the north American Indians have similar ideas and Russian bodies have been dug up I do believe with acupuncture marks tattooed on their bodies. So the ideas of Qi and its manifestations have been known to many ancient civilizations, but described in a different way. The central idea though is universal, but has been misinterpreted by mostly Christian influenced ideas that have nothing to do with Dao. Hence many people in the west interpret the DDJ in a very stolid/intellectual way, when it should not be. Most of us have been persuaded to think in a way by our teachers and however we try to see things differently, the subconscious mind kicks in its own version of reality, which is what we all do to remain sane. From my experience, we have to go through years of self cultivation, ridding the mind and body of desire etc. until it is truly open, when this happens we can then view the world from this perspective. Not many people can really do that. So we are stuck with each and every one of us looking at things from our own perspective according to the way we have been brought up etc. and the way we each view the world and create our own reality. Of course Li Erh Xian Shi was a realised being and his writings show us that he was so.

Here is my advise: One aspect is enough to start off and is simple. Eat a vegetarian diet, have no flavorings or spice, (that means no garlic, no onions or anything that has a strong taste) it must be plain. Let go of your desire. One cannot achieve any form of cultivation when the mind is still full, one must begin to empty it in a real way.

I missed the great debate! But see it has been locked, but I wanted to add my observations, if that's ok by the mods? Perhaps we can continue it without too many frayed tempers??? The one question I would like to put forward is what is he getting from this? Personally speaking eighteen years of practice seems very little to develop oneself to the level he is showing he has achieved. Is it a wise thing to show off in front of western vulnerable people? Externally from what I can judge, he is issuing his power, but he makes far too much ceremony of the paper and making it into a ball for me to believe that he is really doing this. If you can really do this, get someone else to put the paper on the floor and do it, no ceremony or touching the paper, or stamping it out afterwards, which may conceal evidence of a trick. I have been in the presence of a magician who can do just as amazing things as John Chang, but they are only tricks. Personally I think there are people who can do this sort of thing, but I don't think we will see them demonstrate it without a very serious purpose for doing so.

I think that he is frying up from the inside!

To look at the DDJ, one must look at the surrounding culture and trains of thought that existed in the time of Li Erh. Not to do so is to miss the point and then it becomes simply a blinkered perception of western philosophy devoid of all richness and fullness.

I am non Chinese but I know the DDJ better than you or in fact anyone else alive on this planet. You don't have the original. Li Erh's original thought can be easily transmitted to any other language and any other culture, if the expression and sentiments are right. Li Erh did not just write his thoughts down just for the Chinese, he wrote them down for all peoples and all living things. He chose me to teach, not a Chinese person, what does that tell you? Be humble, act as if you know nothing, remember the passage in Chuang Tzu about the Master who showed his student how powerful his control and knowledge of the Dao was and when his student realised this, he knew that he knew nothing and returned to looking after the pigs and cooking for his wife.

I think we are missing the point here. Li Erh is saying 'nothing', 'emptiness', 'non being', 'space', etc. is the useful part of being. Therefore non-being and emptiness are the makers of being and form. Without them there is no form.

Deer antlers were worn because shamans believed that deer were signs of immortality along with cranes. It would enhance their connection to the divine and the spirit world. You will note that the pictogram for wu is a female shaman holding feathers while dancing. These were possibly crane feathers. Although I was taught a healing ceremony that involved palm leaves which are a bit similar and equally a very ancient ceremony of healing. Oral transmission was the norm and shamans were 'chosen' by the spirit teacher. Many would see people in the sky when they were young which would be a sign that they were destined to be a shaman in adult life. I have experienced this myself and at the time didn't think it odd, but as I grew up I understood more and thought it very odd until I became a shaman and found out that this was quite usual. The word Dao is basically describing the practices of a very ancient culture based on shamanism, shamans being the 'wise' and knowledgeable folk amongst the tribes. So the roots are very spiritual and based on common sense observation; 'to walk in a wise way'. In temple Daoism there are different levels of mediums they are no longer called wu or fang shi, they are called Dang ki, xian hong etc. These are very different to the ancient wu. The modern Daoists seem to be plagued and stressed with ritual and ceremony beyond call, even down to wearing the right colored cap on the right day. All unnecessary. My robes I very rarely wear and for the greater majority of my spiritual training I have worn tatty jeans and trainers. A misconception; you don't need to wear the uniform to be a real Daoist, you need to have Dao xin. You don't have to burn incense and recite prayers, you need to just live life in a wise way, being aware of the spiritual essence of life and common sense way of the world. There really is no great mystique!

A most interesting topic. The OP has some mixed ideas that are based on general knowledge but are not necessarily true. The origins of Daoism started before writing or thought like Li Erh wrote down in the DDJ, but from spiritual practices, herb lore and natural phenomenon which was to do with how people noticed natural things which enabled them to live easier. That knowledge dates back some 70-100,000 thousand years BCE. We see the invention of the bow and arrow some 70,000 years ago and along with this the first thought about the interconnection of all things and the development of shamanism. The shamans head, wearing deer antlers is our first indication of this wisdom as part of the pictogram of 'Dao'. The other, a foot. Daoism has come along way since this, some would say it has been very much corrupted by the Temple Daoism/religious Daoism of the relative modern age. I would very much tend to agree with this view. IMO There is only Dao there is not a separation of philosophy and religion. People want to divide these schools and therefore miss what Dao is in its essence; it is neither completely spiritual or philosophical, it is though a recognition of the natural laws which all things are bound by, which encompassing all things. Finding it and its root though is lost in the miasma of teachings.

lineages are difficult to trace especially when they are martial ones. I have received the lineages of many styles of martial art, most of these have never been transmitted to others. Although I have taught others certain arts in the past it doesn't mean that they have received that lineage, because their training was incomplete. Religious schools are even worse for transmission of the teachings, because they can be added to or not taught properly, students of some schools can set up their own versions etc etc. What one thinks in a genuine lineage and genuine arts can also not be genuine as the transmission to inner students can be wrong and there is no measuring stick to gauge by. Quite a mess I think.

Answer to 1; yes and no; I don't want to seek fame or riches from what I have been taught, only to empower others to tread the path. Answer to 2; Heaven is a real place. it exists orbiting the earth. It is pure energy and the Immortals who live there are now only pure energy. The role of Heaven is explained many times in the DDJ. We are all reflections of the energy of the cosmos and of our environment. We are born of the cosmos and nourished by it. Partly yes. On TTB's I would say there are actually not many Daoists! I would say that there are a lot of people interested in its manifestations and many who like to intellectualise the words of wisdom of the sages like Li Erh. They struggle to understand the 'letter' of the Dao, but have not a whit of knowledge about the spirit or connectivity of themselves and nature, so they miss the most important part. They miss this because it is not heart felt. If we were to take a poll, which we could, amongst TTB's and ask who would believe the prophecy of Shaman Flowing Hands, what do think the poll would show us? Now, what hope do I have of ever convincing anyone else that what is to come is real and that what I say comes from the Immortals? Not long ago, I told a person what I did, how I learn't my martial arts etc., of course they didn't really beleive me and to this day have never mentioned it. I begged the Immortal masters to show me something that would rid them of their doubt, so the Immortal master showed me that we were at the same place 26 years ago in a crowd of thousands of people. He showed me them as they were then and where it was. So I had a bet with this person and told them and described them as they were then, whether they could remember the place and time. Although now 2 years have gone by and they haven't bothered to answer me, I decided that they did not respect that which came from the Devine, so I haven't bothered to tell them the answer. But the Immortals can show things that are to come and that which have gone if necessary. So I know that what I was shown is coming, but convincing others is the most difficult thing of all. I once wrote to the Delai Lama, he never replied. Why I bothered I don't know, he only has stepped up on one rung of the long ladder to spiritual enlightenment and has many hundreds if not thousands of incarnations left to go before he will get there. Only death seperates me from being Immortal again and yet I ask him to help me to help the world with compassion for life and he can't be bothered to answer. Why? He dosen't beleive who I am. I am not about to start a new religion, there are enough of them already plying their perverse trade. So I feel there is no hope and little that I could do anyway. So the world must realise its fate, we have just seven short years..... Make good use of them.

"Carrying body and soul, can you become like a new born babe? Ever supple and yielding, but with a firm grip on life. Purifying the Primal Vision, can you be without stain? Loving all things, can you rule without cleverness? Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the woman? Understanding and being open to all things, are you able to do nothing and follow the flow? Giving birth and nourishing, bearing, yet not posessing, working, yet not taking credit, leading, but not dominating. For this is primal virtue. When a baby is born, as part of evolution babies are born with a very strong grip so that they can cling to their mothers and not fall while being carried. A baby is born completely supple and open to everything. So as you go along in life, in following the way it is best to be supple of body and mind and open to all things, but with a firm grip on reality and stability. Our view of the world is distorted by many things. Here we have reference to the process of Dao Xin, of the path to enlightenment, of opening the third eye of knowing all things. Having knowledge and power can you live with this without resorting to corruption and using this power for selfish ends? Linked to this, through the process of enlightenment and loving all things are you able to let things take their natural path and not interfere? Are you able to rule the world wisely and without corruption? Remember the Dao is feminine; yin. Heaven is yin, we are asked can we be as wise as the role of Heaven? Women are soft and yeilding, give life and nuture. Having understanding of all things we should be able to let things take their natural course, for one action will lead to another. The world as we know it will come to a sudden and horrible end in seven years, our actions and the actions of just a few will determine the outcome. I have told of what is to come but I am taking no action to do any more and following the flow of life until its end. I have understanding about the way things are and I cannot change them. I therefore continue on and prepare myself for a time of great strife. Using the female principle we are using what the great Dao has taught us, this is primal virtue.

You seem to take on board 'truths' that have never been said or even discussed. Who said here that I practice "black magic", you are making a very large presumption and might I say a very great mistake in your thinking! I would even say you are being overtly provocative!

still can't sign out!

correction; don't listen to slang Chinese that people put about in the streets, just because one person says Mao Shun is hetrodox, doesn't make the whole sect the same. It is the same as saying that a Christian murderer makes all Christians the same. Alot of the Chinese slag off Mao shun practitioners because its fashionable and they themselves are not any good. 'Its always the Mao shun who causes the water to turn bad because they summoned up a demon to poison us'. Of course the people did not look at the fact that their hygene was rotten and disease had been caused by this and not by the Mao Shun scorcerer.

Chang Tao Ling is said to be resposible for the formation of religous Daoism. Mao Shun and other mountain retreats established their own branch of Daoism. The only link that I have with Mao Shun is the fact that they revered Li Erh and they were famous for their excorcism and magical arts. So in very loose terms the sect that I can be associated with is Mao Shun, but the Three Immortals that I follow formed their own sect which is another story. Religious Daoism took many of the old arts of shamanism and incorporated into religious Daoism. Sadly the great perversion of Daoism begun. I practice a slightly modified version of the old shamanism that was in existence in Li Erh's time. The difference is that they did not draw the fa fu like i do now to convey the energy. I still can perform healing rites for groups of people, dance etc. like the ancient shaman did all those years ago. Tell fortunes and summon up Immortals and do excorcism. Mao Shun is considered Illegal by the PRC because it represents a threat to its position by the posession of magical power and influence over people. It has nothing to do with hetrodoxy.