flowing hands

I think we need to take this back to the female principle and not derail the thread. The female principle is linked to all of the other four. Without real love, a love and understanding for all things one cannot realise true enlightenment. Without altering and understanding the 'self', one cannot realise true love. In finding true spiritual love one must apply the female principle to ones life. All five themes are related but we have not really touched properly on the female principle. For your information I do not 'channel' Li Erh or any other Immortal. I beg them to come, It may take some time before they come and it is a physical presence not a mental one. So Li Erh is a real person who lived approximately 600BC. He wrote down the DDJ then on bamboo slithers. He died and his spirit became a great Immortal. There are many Daoist shamans, particularly in southeast asia, where Li Erh is prayed to and begged for healing and help. In my own temple in malaysia, many native Chinese shamans told me that out of the three Immortals, Li Erh was the most difficult to get to come. He is a top Immortal and so does not go to teach or draw holy water for anyone. So having come to me to teach me his DDJ was a great honour. In fact I am the only one he has ever done this for in 2600 years, thats how important it was. It was important because of what I was told and shown was to befall the earth and his rightful teaching was important to have now when we all need to really asses our spiritual understanding of the world around us.

Well mate, mr Leicester spiritualist church, where is your training and your tradition? I think before you start putting your opinions out about other peoples abilities and what they are doing you need to get your own house in order. It seems to me 'fish and chip' pyschic suppers, you talk a load of 'cods' wallap. My advice to you is not to be criticising others who have recieved genuine training from a traditional path that has been established for thousands of years and not some mish mash you've picked up at the local fish shop! By the way I am part of a Temple group that has temples mostly in south east asia and I have many spiritual brothers and sisters who follow the same Immortals and practice even in Europe. One of them is a very well known native Chinese martial artist, who is my spiritual brother.

Hi Jeff, I have been watching the debate. In the chapter 55 Li Erh is talkng about a wise person who is apprenticed to becoming an Immortal. They therefore have to experience and know many, many things. Contrary to popular belief they will also experience the union of man and woman (sexual intercourse). Because the sage is one of the ten thousand things he/she will follow what is natural also. Being wise and having understanding about the 'way' in a real way (enlightenment is a physical realisation), they can then become devine (they can skip the process of being reborn and live forever as an enlightend spirit master).

Yes they certainly do have free will, but of course they are 'enlightened' they understand the nature of all things so they don't interfere and as you say follow the flow.

Don't get me wrong and words are very easily misinterpreted and I'm not telling you or anyone else what they experience is real to them or not. I am not citing what I said directly at you personally, I am talking about the difference between using drugs and the mind and spirit communication and non drug use and the minds ability to fool even the most experienced practitioners in these matters. This is why we always start with physical communication first, there is no mind, drug or anything else that can be so very easily misleading. Many people go to the Temples and beg the Immortals to draw the Holy Water and never succeed, even though they go there many times. Very few are successful. The successful ones know then that the Immortal has come to them and will teach them to whatever extent they feel they should. The other way is very dodgy; you go off to some shaman who gives you a drug and tells you that you will see visions and meet people from the spirit world. Which of the two do you think is an assured and real experience? How much has it cost you also? You go to the source (Temple) and it costs you nothing, but if you are successful you will have achieved something real. The other way you've paid a few hundred dollars and got a bad head and lots of other things the next day and it was all in your mind. Sacred knowledge is in all living and non living things, we all contain the very spark from the very beginning of all things, no one life form is more sacred than any other. To say that some are more sacred is to show complete lack of understanding and realization. All drugs come from plants or mineral substances even if they are synthesized and altered. All plants are sacred, all life is sacred, when humans begin to fully realize this the world may come back to balance. To experience the sacred or to receive sacred teachings one does not need to take a plant or synthesized drug. Going back to the weather, it is under its own control and will only be altered by the intervention of Immortals, no other person can alter the weather without their consent. I have altered the weather before, but it was the Immortals who did this. We come back then to the idea of wu wei. of active non interference. The world is ruled by taking no action, by leaving things to follow their natural path whether that leads to perceived disaster or not. This is why the Immortals leave the world to take its course and many say if there was a God then this or that would never happen. That's because they don't understand about the nature of life. The Immortals have power to change and prevent many disasters, but they don't because they would then be interfering with the path of nature, whether this is human made or nature made.

When calling or begging for the intervention of a spiritual entity, the use of drugs have a counter effect. Whats in your mind, which is the biggest self delusional object to perception, can completely fool you as to what is really going on. Putting a drug in the mix is only going to make the situation even worse. So people literally believe that they 'fly' when it fact they don't. People believe that they have contacted a spirit or influenced, as you say, the weather for instance, but they haven't. But their minds, like in certain mental illnesses, make them beleive that they have seen those things and done them. In the tradition that I follow which stretches some many thousands of years, we have never used drugs. So when the spirit comes it enters us physically and moves us about so we have no mental games in which to play with ourselves and we are assured that what is happening is real. If we never had this and only mental communication and we added various drugs to the pot, what a state one could get into of self disillusionment and misinterpretation of oneself and others. The mind is a very powerful tool.

For me no!

Sorry double post!

One doesn't need to take any sort of drug to change ones perception of life or reality. I have been a shaman for nearly thirty years. When the spirit comes it makes its presence known physically, there is no question of doubt, there are no mind games. There is no substitute for a good teacher, who will start you on the path of opening the mind and the heart and then your perception of life can be altered and you as a person can grow. Traditional use of drugs in shamanism are the poor relation to the purer path and the use of drugs have no permanent effect on the spiritual growth and awareness of the person concerned. For the altered state is not one that is generated by cognitive balance, so the masks of personality/ego remain after the drug wears off. Changing the personality/ego through cognitive realization and cultivation over time and experience produces a balanced mind and real change. This is my experience.

Hello Anamatva, You cannot refine Qi to shen, as I once said to you before, do not believe all that you read or what is taught. This is all I have to say to you. Good luck!

I'm surprised that you are the only person so far to have noticed that!! Back in 1986 when Li Erh taught me his true teachings he asked me to look at various translations and how various things were expressed in English. My transmission is especially for the English speaking world. So I got hold of various translations and when he came to me he rejected many as being nonsense, mechanical and very poor translations and some he said were simple and precise and near to how he would express each chapter in English. Some of Feng's chapters expressed the precise meaning and expression that he wanted with changes of emphasis and meaning needed. So some of Feng's way of expression and meaning was completely right in parts of the chapters. But alot of the meaning and emphasis was also wrong. I remember Li Erh saying to me alot of this does not make sense, if the translator had any idea about the Dao, why would they write it like this? I remember him seeing D.C Lau's version and saying 'no wonder people have difficulty in understanding what I wrote! It completely obscures the whole point and meaning'. (Sorry DC Lau if your reading this!) So this is why I keep emphasizing that what Li Erh gave to me is the best English version, conveying the whole meaning so that we as western people can get our brains around the ideas and concepts expressed in Li Erh's writings. For he has looked at so many translations in English and picked the best expressions and then added completely new meanings and emphasis. Knowing what I know, I never bother to look else where. If you want to find wisdom, self awareness and enlightenment its all in there, perfectly described and expressed for us western folk. I think there are folk out there who have realized the difference in what Li Erh taught me over other translations. Some very important points that are completely missing in other tranlaltions.

"Truthful words are not necessarily beautiful, and very often, beautiful words are not truthful". (Li Erh Xian Shi Chapter 81) I am glad to hear that your suffering was relieved. Peoples skepticism is due totally to their lack of understanding and experience. A lot on this board have never had a real teacher or experienced the teachings of a Daoist master. Alot on this board have never experienced real shamanism nor received real teachings, only from books or internet articles. Or they have been on courses. One of the reasons why I bother to come on this board after nearly 30 years of teaching from my Divine masters is to give a real understanding as was taught to me. So I try to give people a real understanding of the DDJ that was taught to me. In this way it is an un-corrupted source, it is a gift that people don't expect to get in this day and age, so they are skeptical. It is a gift because of what is to come. It is a gift because I hope to help people to a true understanding of themselves and the world around them. Respect for religion comes from the resulting factors of its affect on the people and the environment that it has. If religion suppresses people, misleads them, causes wars and does not hold life as sacred, then why should anyone have respect for that religion? Does any other life form follow a religion? No. Do life forms need religion? No. They need the Dao to live together as was dictated by the environment and evolution. What is written by men or women is not necessarily true and has been used to wield power over peoples and lands. Religion is an invention of humans not of the Dao. It is a very strong political force that can force people to believe and do things that are against the Dao. Whatever goes against the Dao will never last. Having a true understanding, will lead to a far better world and greater happiness and contentment. I talk very straightforwardly, so this may come over on a board as 'arrogant' etc. but if you were to meet me in person you would see that I was not that sort of person at all. Being a student of Gods puts me in rather a unique position and I have been tutored for all these years to have great understanding about spiritual matters. If I don't know about something whether it is true or not then I don't say. If the Immortal master has taught me something that I know about and have great experience in then I will. I will speak with confidence. Being Tactful as you say is for those who know nothing of the Dao, who have very limited understanding. "When the Dao is present in the heart, you will act naturally, your actions and speech, may seem awkward and blunt to lesser men. Your views of the world may seem stupid also". I would rather appear as a blunt idiot than a soft diplomatic sycophant. Kuan Yin was once a man and then he turned himself into a woman because the female principle is one that can be seen as a helpful and compassionate symbol. The Buddhism that I would follow comes from her. When addressing her or begging for help from her we say Kuan Yin Neung Neung or 'grand mother'. Her teachings are called 'The pure path of knowledge' There are four guiding principles. These principles I followed and still follow to some extent today as they are at one with the Dao. So I have great respect for Kuan Yin, but not for human written words that could be true but could quite easily be false. Your sutra that was written by a man says that Kuan Yin will come to help whenever anyone calls her name, I have told you what I understand about this and I wouldn't say anything If I didn't know! Before I became a shaman I went to Kuan Yins temple in Malaysia and I prostrated myself before her 'blessed' image. I begged her for help and shook the yarrow talks and threw the wooden shapes to get my answer and it was right. I have never seen a foot long yarrow stalk come out of a cup on its own before, as if an invisible hand had pulled it out and selected the right one out of the pack. It was amazing!!! It was the right answer to my prayer. So it is true that if you are sincere in your heart that she will help you, but what I said before about the mind and the need to help others also still stands. Good luck

I shan't have access to a computer for a while so I thought I would add this to enhance the discussion. My understanding, as it was told to me by the Immortal Master, of the creation of the world etc. is as thus. One can't imagine the amount of time that has passed when all that existed was exactly nothing. There was no sound, no dimension, no light, completely nothing. Then for some reason within this there was a small vibration. Over the millions of years this vibration grew stronger and stronger. The vibration began to cause heat For another countless time this began to build, so pressure was created and the act of containment was immense. Finally, the pressure was so immense that it exploded (the big bang) All things came into being This explosion and its effect are still going and turning what was nothing into dimension at the very boundaries of the universes. At some point this initial explosion will run out of energy and the dimensionless etc. will move in back on the dimension-ed universes. But this will not happen for a long time. So we are talking about the Dao and the female principle....over to you folks.

Come now don't be put off so easily, we are not a gang of any sort!! The DDJ I was given you can download from my site. Once you have it you can make a valued contribution. We may get a bit hot under the collar with each other sometimes, but computers don't bite!!!

Let me make a bold statement! The Dao is female/ it is the female principle, but within this there is male principle. So the Dao nourishes life and the male principle fires up the life to take its form according to its environment. From the female came the male, the Dao is female in principle. From nothing came something. Li Erh says it many times. CHAPTER 52 The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe, the Universe is born from the Dao. From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists. It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth. In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it. In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery. Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one.

I have already

Sadly this is the difference between Taoists and Buddhists; Buddhists believe that anything written, or anything they are told in a sutra is true. So it is of many religions. So it is written that Kuan Yin will come when called. Why? Because you beleive she will and your mind tells you there is a difference after you have recited her name? Beware of the power of the mind! Kuan Yin maybe the Goddess of Mercy, but she is bound by the Universal wisdom and truth that the world is ruled by not interfering. If she helps you, to be fair she would have to help other people also. That means everyone and everything that lives. The world is ruled by not interfering, whenever I have begged her to come and she has entered my body I have asked her for advice and help, which she has given, but it is of my own practice that the help has been achieved. She has not swept away all my troubles for that would not be fair to you, or anyone else, or to anything else. She fully understands that to live is to suffer, to suffer is to have real understanding, to have real understanding is on the path to realization. Why would she stop true realization by taking away a persons suffering, when this is part of the great process of realization leading to one day enlightenment?

Here is my understanding of what Li Erh thought when he used the words Wu wei. Active intention/awareness. When one is aware of the interaction between all life and this is what is happening, then there is no reason to act. When the world is out of balance then wu wei would mean to act with balance to correct the imbalance. Taking 'no action' would not make any sense considering everything else.

The Female principle: Chapter 2 Bearing, yet not possessing. Working, yet not taking credit, Work is done, then forgotten, therefore it remains eternal. Giving life, the principle job of the female, caring and looking after these young lives requires the female principle in both the male and the female. Most parents not just of humans do this because it is the natural way. It is done and then forgotten, it is part of the natural way. In doing this and in this caring role this work keeps going by the generations to come who do the same thing from the very beginning to the very end of all life. So the wise person takes on this role of the giving female principle through wu wei and compassionate balance. This work is hardly seen or felt but it remains the same work that all wise people undertake for this is like the Dao; empty but full, giving life but not possessing, bearing yet not taking credit for the giving of that life. Many parents make the great mistake of emotionally blackmailing their children by the phrase of something like this;" I gave you your life and did all this for you and now....." This is because they gave but wanted something in return, they didn't follow the way, nor the true female principle of giving and not taking credit, of bearing but not possessing. In some way they thought they owned that child and did not see that child as a manifestation of the Dao in its own right being prepared to carry on the eternal work, once it was old enough to do so.

"by that token flowing hands, why reverse the flow of the microcosmic orbit, or channel the semen up the spine to nourish the brain? I would say that trying to extricate oneself from suffering is natural and unavoidable too." I reiterate my earlier statement: what one believes, or what one has been told and shown by others is not necessarily true in reality.

Sorry double post!

I think it goes back to whether one feels realistically suffering, (whatever this state means for it means very different things to different people and to different forms of life), is natural and is unavoidable so should be accepted and not interfered with, or one could spend a whole lifetime trying to relieve ones own suffering unsuccessfully or others? Do you feel that you could do this as a Buddhist? I am half a Taoist and Half a Buddhist. I follow the 'pure path' of Kuan Yin through the Monkey God and follow the Tao teachings through Li Erh and Hua Tuo. But my Buddha nature in the making, tells me that I can only work on myself and practice compassion in a balanced way. I accept suffering and embrace it as the human condition. For to live is to suffer. To suffer is to understand, to understand is the beginning of realization. Without realization how could one even become wise and reach the stage of true enlightenment. My advice; suffer lots in different ways and also enjoy life in different ways, then one will begin to understand.

OK tell me in what chapters do we find mention or inferences of the female principle? Sorry I'm not just going to spill the beans. You folks know just as well. Then we can explore it. Let us just use the transmission I was given, then we can have no misunderstandings. Yin; black, female, shade, soft, yielding, nurturing, deep, infinite................. add to the list at will! Wu: female shaman (nu wu) dancing holding feathers Taoist magic; female giving birth to life The grand ultimate: Female, soft overcoming the hard.

Hello Anamatva, what one believes and what is actually true are completely different things. There lies some great debate, but what I have been told is that it is the Taoists, those that follow the path of nature and natural forces, rule and have been alive in spirit form for the longest of any Gods or Immortals present and that comparatively, Buddhism is a new religion by that standard. I am not being biased at all, considering that one of my main teachers is a Buddha. When one considers this fact, that the oldest Immortal was created when the very beginning of all things came into existence (the big bang). Now they are a Taoist by definition. Any other Gods pale into insignificance in comparison. This God lives in its spirit form in the galaxies wandering as the universes expand. I suppose at some stage when this expansion has stopped it will travel around all that has been created. Even the Immortals in the Heavenly void cannot contact it, it is so far away from us. Though they are capable of travelling unimaginable distances in seconds and could seek it out. Just some thoughts for you.

Ha Ha! now we are coming to the second most important theme: the female principle and water is one of its symbols.