flowing hands

'Blessing' indicates to me a wanting of divine intervention. To say thanks for your food I think is good although totally unnecessary for ordinary people. The Tao has given life for free, it does not require our thanks nor our rejection, it simply is what it is. We are part of this. To give our thanks is to start believing in the divine and divine intervention into our fortunes or whether we are helped to have food or not. But of course we are dependent on ourselves and others to provide that food and not necessarily the divine. I remember a Christian once said to me; "God helps those who help themselves". They must have heard of the Tao!! If you wash your vegetables, prepare any fresh meat, you are cleansing this of any negative, so to speak, energy. Energy needs a form and a command to remain what it is. It rarely, in simple cellular structures, remains what it is when it is handled. When it has deteriorated and is dying, no end of energy sent into that food will make it young and fresh. Choose fresh food and don't waste your store, you need it for your life. A long life is far better than a short one.

If you make your energy strong it will not matter whether you come into contact with negative energies, your energy will not be affected, but you may change the energy that is negative!

I've got to say I think this is not a good idea! Living things have their own DNA, Jing and Qi, unless it has been interfered with by someone like me, then you should consume the food as it is presented. The energy in the food if fresh will be strong and vital, allow your body to absorb it. Don't interfere with the energy of another living thing even if your intention is good. Giving and even the taking of energy is a specialist field, intentions are fine but having control of energy is a completely different matter. A specific command must be given using energy and not just thought.

Just to throw another thing into this discussion. I think that philosophy implies a wish for the world etc. to be something different to what it is and so remains primarily a mindful meaning (lets not get into the mix of politics as well here).The DDJ is an observation of reality of what is there and so has great intent and potency for things to remain static and flowing accordingly. Philosophy along with politics tends to alter society create wars and differences.

No and yes to some degree. The statues if they are in a blessed temple will be 'open eye', so the Immortals can 'see' who is praying or coming into the temple.

I think what you have expressed is a completely different matter.

It depends on what you practice and what you do in your life, how you practice, and how your body is. What your store of inherited jing is like etc. etc. Some people can progress quite quickly and others take very much longer. There really isn't a set number of years its down to the individual, which is why it must be carefully monitored.

I'm not actually talking about "intention", there lies indeed a great field of discussion. No I am talking about the practicalities of the body and of self store and of self energy. Yes some people beleive that they can transfer energy through themselves from the universe and not be harmed and I'm sure they can. What they can't do is do it with any great power without being literally fried up, if they haven't changed their bodies to cope with the power. Our bodies through the process of evolution have come to an anatomical substance to use qi and the power of nature to run on at a certain level. Without going into how we get qi etc. lets just say if we put more than the usual amount of this energy into our bodies it won't like it. Nor will it like it if you try and give it away for it relies on this energy to survive. For instance if you start practicing an energy art, even after a year or so you can feel drained and exhausted afterwards, because you are challenging your own bodies energy and you must challenge it to make it grow inside your body. Then we get into the jing area etc. and the practices to do with this. We also get into the lower dan tien area and the practices involved in this. This power of course is a very weak power compared to the other power which we have in our bodies, that I shall not speak of. One can also over practice and under practice, which one is harmful to a certain level and the other will see no progress. 'energy arts must be taught and overseen by a high level teacher who has fundamental understanding of the workings of the body in accord with energy. People are different in their energy uptake and reaction to various exercises and so this must be carefully monitored. Out of all the arts, energy arts are the most commonly practiced, but the most dangerous to life and limb if done or taught wrongly.

In answer to the original post, developing Qi so that your body can run abnormally on more volts takes many careful and knowledgeable years of practice. The healers art is to gain enough volts which will allow them to manipulate another's Qi to not only change energy but physical tissue. The martial artists wishes to develop qi so that it can be sent out to destroy an enemy. A lifetimes careful practice, not developed in a few years. Harm comes from someone who does not know exactly what they are doing or do they have a converted body which has been specifically altered in time to run on more volts. Not having this will lead to self harm. If one looks at oneself like a bag of sugar and when one gives away some of that sugar, say half a kilo from your kilo, then one will be exhausted by keep doing it. If one has 5 kilos and one gives away 1 kilo there is still a great deal of resource left and the body will make up the loss quite quickly. No one should attempt to send or give qi who has not had many years of specific training in energy arts that are to do with 'sending out', otherwise they will get used up from the inside out. This is my advice. First one must make a store, a store takes many long years of practice there are no shortcuts.

There doesn't seem to be any more movement on the thread although I feel there's still more to come, perhaps we can move on and look at the DDJ in relation to shamanistic practices, religious Taoism and Temple Taoism like the walking over hot coals and the like? How do these relate to each other and where do they come from? I'm sure there's lots of folks out there who know about these things that we can debate them!!!

I don't think this has anything to do with the Tao Te Ching? Nor does it have anything to do with the real Tao!

Again I would have to beg him to come to ask about this. But I'll make some educated guesses, but I could be wrong! "The Ancient Masters were always empty....." I think this does refer to the writings of sage kings (ancient shamans) gleaned from whatever oral or documented writings were available at the time. Evidence of such people is scant and he may have met up with spiritual masters in his time while he was alive. I think it is very likely. It is also very likely that he learnt forms of specialised Qi gong and martial art. For he once told me that he invented his own style of martial art. I would also say that he practiced meditation. Who he was taught by, as yet I do not know. He wasn't a shaman in the full sense as I explained earlier. I have no understanding of the term 'straw dogs', it was never taught to me and does not occur in the version Li Erh taught me. My understanding of Wang Mu Neung Neung, is that she is the Jade Emperor's (Yu Wang Shan Ti) wife. I do not know any thing about the Yellow Emperor (Huang Di), but I do know there are far more ancient masters that are Immortals that generally people have never heard of. I once had the great honor to speak with an Immortal called 'The Old Wise Immortal of Flowering Blossom Mountain', he had been an Immortal for over 100,000 years! We know that spiritual, and energy practices stretch back a very long way!!! If I can I will try and Beg My Master Li Erh to come again. It is quite difficult to get Li Erh to come as he is such a high Immortal. In the Temples where he is placed with other Immortals as 'bond brothers', shamans report that Li Erh is unheard of in coming to the begging of the shamans, so I feel greatly honored and don't want to ask for too much if you see what I mean?

I would have to beg him to come to me again to ask him, but I do know that he did not go to India and the border keeper was a very learned man, who amongst other things liked poetry. At that time the Chinese view was not about aspiring to own a lamborgini, but to become a sage and live a long life. So whatever status you were, one aspired and learnt as much as possible about the Tao and natural wisdom as possible in between whatever you had to do to survive. I do know that it was Loyang that he left and headed westward, so whoever knows their geography can work it out where the Han-ku pass leads to. Mao Shan is the sacred mountain of Tao and of Li Erh, of the 'Three Pure Ones', I don't know again without begging whether this is where he went. By the way I seem to remember someone on this site saying that I was from the Mao Shan sect, I am not.

Here is some information that I obtained directly from Li Erh Xian Shi. It may help to further our understanding. For a start Li Erh was born normally like everyone else, not as the result of a falling star and then remained in his mother's womb for seventy years. That would go against the Tao! He was as I have mentioned before the incarnation of a great Immortal. When he grew up he worked as a keeper of antiquities, which included the writings, artifacts and oral traditions of many Tao masters and shamans. After many years he left this work and at the age of around 85, he decided to live on the mountains and cultivate the Tao. On his journey he passed out of his home district and into another. The border keeper, recognized him as the sage of great wisdom that he had become to be known. The border keeper invited him to stay before he disappeared into the mountains and to write down his thoughts on the Tao. So he stayed with the border keeper for some time and he wrote down over 150 different thoughts on the Tao. Many of these he discarded for one reason or another and by the time he left for the mountain 85 remained. They were written on a type of paper known in those times not on bamboo. Today we only have 81 chapters or stanzas, so what happened to the other four? Well the border keeper somehow lost them or removed four of them because the Chinese are very superstitious about numbers and 9x9= 81 more of a lucky number than 85!!! Li Erh left and found a cave high up on the mountain where lived until he died. His spirit was released from the mortal coil and was met by a host of celestial Immortals, where he was taken to see the Jade Emperor. Now he remains as a top celestial Immortal.

Great post!!

This thread appears to have gone way off topic!! 'Tradition' meaning it has a long lineage stretching back thousands of years. The head of the lineage is the Immortal master who trains shamans to various stages of skill and knowledge. The spark is given by the Immortal master, although I can transmit and give power and teachings to another person it doesn't mean that they will be automatically taught by any spirit or Immortal master. It is the Immortal master who decides who he or she will teach. I'm taking this back to my original intent as commentaries and other peoples translations are not important, only in the sense that they say different things so can delude or elude to what Li Erh really wrote. Stanza 79 In the affairs of men, know how to conduct yourself. When men lack honesty and trust, quarrels will occur. When they occur some resentment and bad feeling remains. The answer lies in people's hearts. Know your part and keep your word, then all will be well. The Sage keeps his word and knows his part, but does not expect others to fulfil their half. With virtue a man performs his deed, but a man without virtue is rigid in his desire for others to act. Go with the flow and fulfil your part. The Dao of Heaven is impartial and treats all things equally. But it remains with good men all the time. Is this just pure philosophy and politics?

I am a traditional shaman. To transmit the practices to someone else, they would usually follow the same Immortal and I would leave them in the hands of the Immortal once they had been accepted. But equally I can write down the teachings and observations from my long years of being a shaman and then people can read them. Many a book has been written by other shamans and there are varying ways and traditions that are used to transmit knowledge to an apprentice shaman. I can write them down just as I am talking to you and giving you information and knowledge, there is no difference in the end.I do not call Lao Tzu (Old Teacher) this name, because he has a proper name; Li Erh (long Lobed). The same as he is often called 'Tai Sung Lo Gin', which again is not his name. Li Erh is his name and he was a real person, some people believe that they are descendants of Li Erh, which is quite possible.

There is definitely no poetry in the DDJ. It was written by one man over a period of time. It reflects his thoughts as he established a way to write down what he felt was important. Remember Li Erh Xian Shi came to me many times to write his thoughts down, he then gave explanations to each chapter. The problem here I perceive is that, we have such a vast amount of differing translations, commentaries, each person giving their opinion and view. This is the one reason why Li Erh gave me his words over twenty four years ago. Sure we can all give our own rendition of Tao, I'm sure I could write a book myself, but that's not what Li Erh wrote and in context. I repeat again it was written at a time when shamanism was deeply held in the culture that Li Erh lived in. It is the root or foundation that Li Erh wrote his words to, there is no denying this. There did not exist any other more well established belief system at that time other than shamanism. This deeply held belief and practice maintained itself for may hundreds of years after Li Erh. It was not till the forming of religious Tao that the elements of shamanism were taken into the Tao religion. We will go back to stanza 1 Without giving away too many secrets, here is a very strong reference to self cultivation, to exercises and practices known to shamans to cultivate their power. Stanza 52 The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe, the Universe is born from the Dao. From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists. It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth. In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it. In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery. Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one. Here is another stanza of thought very near the same meaning as stanza 1 If one wants to become enlightened one really only needs these two chapters, only of course if one really understands deeply what they mean in reality. There is the mystery. I take you back to shamanism! But you can show me philosophy, or poetry if you like!

I'm afraid the Henshangong just obscures the truth and doesn't add up. It does not make the connection between things. The whole point of the DDJ is to make the connection between the way humans conduct themselves, the Sages part, and understanding the forces and where they come from. With understanding people can live their lives in accordance to the way things are and have evolved. Let me give you a very simplified understanding of the first stanza of the DDJ. Because the way is such an on-going, evolving process that alters its course and its nature accordingly, it is very difficult to say what the way is. When one tries to name it, it will change through time and become something else. But the nameless, because we can't describe it or really understand it, we know that it was the mother of all things for it has given birth to all things. We can though name the the living and non living things around us that it has given birth to. When we have no desire that is naturally in us, we can begin to sense the great mystery. Here is the reference to spiritual cultivation. When we desire we can see the manifestations of this great energy of creativity. Both come from the way, we can perceive one but the other we can only sense and feel in our hearts. Reference again to spiritual practice. This path of knowing the one but feeling and sensing the other is the beginning of sensing the deep mystery of creativity.

CHAPTER 63 In the Universe, the Dao and the Ten Thousand Things all flow according to their natures. The Heavenly bodies move and glow according to how they were formed Man should take note of this and exercise himself according to their influence, and then he will be in keeping with the Dao. By following the flow and entering into emptiness, practise the ways of doing without doing, influencing without interfering. For the Heavenly bodies influence our lives, but we can never feel their influence. The Sage follows the flow and so he practises influence without interfering. He rewards anger and strife with care and understanding. He meets aggression with yielding softness. So he remains at one, unattached and unharmed. His nature is simple and yielding. So he never complicates his life. He never demands too much of the people or life, and so he does not expect people to fulfil their part. Too many promises can never be kept. So, go with the flow of things and all will be well. When difficulties arise the Sage confronts them, and so he never experiences problems. CHAPTER 64 If people knew of the ways of nature, and their hearts were simple, peace would be dear to them. Trouble can be easily overcome, because their lives are simple, and so their troubles are simple too. All things stem from something; knowing this, trouble can be avoided before it arises. Because the Sage knows of the ways of nature, he is freed from the bond of desire. He does not notice gold and jade. His ideas are open and yielding. He helps men find themselves when they are lost, and remains at one. So he leaves the Ten Thousand Things to follow their natural course. Feng and English translation makes some of the meaning obscure. So 63, Li Erh is talking about the natural forces that influence all living things. It is naturalistic understanding from observation. Again wisdom that was noted by shamans, who used their knowledge of natural cycles, natural forces to connect and live in harmony with them and of course use them. The phase of the moon being the most obvious one. Natural forces can be easily observed and then used. Therefore a wise person conducts themselves in a way that preserves life and uses understanding to deal with others. Not interfering means that things have a tendency to follow a natural course and cycle. When a natural cycle is left to run its course, things remain balanced within the process of inter-connectivity of life. Therefore in ruling all things, take no action and everything will go along as it should do. A wise person seeks to understand the way things inter-relate and connect, so they remain detached and do not interfere with the way things are.

Lets get our definitions sorted. Shamanism is not a religion as such, though there may be seen religious ingredients within its practices. These practices have been taken and organised into religion. Religion has really nothing to do with shamanism. Temple Taoism, which may have a shaman or medium present, is very different to lay shamanism which is the true art. Women in Tao shamanism are viewed equally as men there is no difference, and the word for shaman comes from a woman dancing with feathers; a ritual of shamans that is used to heal groups of people together. In ancient times the shaman/shamaness were the head of the village. Ritual dance and prayers were important for the well being of the people the land and all life around them. They would consult the shaman for many things. The shaman would consult the spirits that lived in the local area. It was a dangerous job for a shaman in those days. When particular shamans became powerful with 'divine' energy and they died, people got to beleive in their spirits. Some shamans became Immortal, their energy lives living forever. So nowadays we have many gods who people beleive in and shamans don't have to open themselves up to any spirit that would come along. Now religion is human made it is more to do with the politics of altering human behavior on mass. Of making the beauty of human life in to a sin, to knock out the beauty of acting naturally and turning things that are natural to be wrong and dirty. To divide people so that they hate each other so much that they will kill someone from another religion. Shamanism connects all people, all life and all spirit. Religion does not.

Lets use Li Erh's version that he dictated to me in English for the English speaking world. Stanza 6 The root of Heaven and Earth, can be found in its spirit. Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries. The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten thousand things. It is ever present and eternal. Well if this is not shamanistic I'm an alien from Mars!!! Li Erh is telling of the energy of the universe that courses through all being and non-being. He's telling us that this is the root to all mystery and is the very source of all living things. It is always there and will always be beyond when our sun and other galaxies have gone.

Well there are not many stanza's that do not speak of the connectivity of material to the spirit. Only some deal with human behavior and if one knows ones ancient history the job of a shaman was to organize people so that society would work well and in harmony with each other. The hub of society was the shaman, so one could site philosophy, but it came from the shaman, one could site politics and wisdom, but it came from the shaman. So if all these things came from the shaman, then Li Erh was recounting the work and wisdom of the shaman.

Let me see. What you have stated I agree with, much confusion has come about in the modern age as the 'tools' of the shaman have been taken away from the whole art. A shaman or shamaness, is someone who firstly communicates with the spirits of the spirit world. The connection between living and non-living is indeed very close and the difference very small. All things share in the one, all things are fired by energy, all things are connected whether alive or dead. The passage in Chuang Tzu where the master confronts the shaman shows how each of them can use energy. Li Erh although was not a shaman in the sense that he had an Immortal master, his connection was deep like a shamans, deep into the spirit of all things. He was the incarnation of a great Immortal in 615 bce, so was born with enormous knowledge and realization, so he did not need an Immortal master to teach him. He was enlightened already. Unlike our friend 'Chi Dragon', although my master has taught me this treatise and I understand it as well as possible, there are still many realizations that come to me frequently when considering the texts. It is written in the text, but realization of the meaning sometimes only occurs when something else stimulates one to think. Therefore, I throw some spanners in the works and hope to help people to think. People like 'chi dragon' have already lost their way, they think they understand by their own words, I doubt this most sincerely. So lets dig and see what we can throw up and bring to the surface some real understandings.