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Sorry, I was meaning generally cause I see it mentioned throughout this thread by different people. I’m not going to be much help in the on topic discussion but I am interested. I wish I had a cool avacado story..i think I’ve heard Derek lin talk about this kinda stuff on YouTube. I’m just a baby grasping

I don’t think it’s fair that we say it goes nowhere because he’s coming at it from a “western approach”. it can go somewhere and it does all the time with so many things in life. It’s just another method of probing life for understanding. It’s the end result‘ what you do with that which is really the issue. Your inquiry can be false or unclear or have no enough information or... What I mean by end result is when you take that limited knowledge and cement it into right and wrong and true and false. the “logical” or “scientific” or whatever organized inquiry is useful for gathering information which might help you understand. AND it may not, AND it might lead you down the wrong path. We’re all probing in the dark.. the potential insight should be interesting and considered. It seems other than having his mind kinda made up Cloud is still making this valid point that we should inquire about what we think or believe or perceive then there’s the benefit of sharing understanding, experience and ideas with others which is worthy in itself sometimes even if We don’t get too far..

I don’t see anything wrong with perusing both sides here. The problem is you can’t know, you can only sense or have evidence . It’s a personal choice. Sometimes choices get us a little entrenched I feel it but I don’t label it..i let it be. at this time not an interest to me to have an explanation or anything,but that’s just me Im ok just experiencing. With things I can’t know, I’ll know when I know or I won’t. I think it will be ok. I do like that this thread isn’t just pure mudslinging. It’s good to think about what you think sometimes... all sides

with all these things that have been said.... it would be cool to hear what you make of these opinions cloud

Been doing some thinking....It seems like you’re going to have a whole lot of different ideas about this thing “daoism” because 1. The writers don’t say the exact same thing. They say similar things but I bet they would disagree on things. Small differences can be made large over time 2. THen there’s understanding of terms.. I’m assuming there are different lineages that have subtle but important differences in the meaning of what is being said. 3. There’s also cultural and translation issues. There are translations of LZ and bits of zhuangzi that (to me) seem to almost detract from the sentiment I get overall. In translating you basically give the person a new voice and also a new emphasis. I cannot know what is the original voice or emphasis, I can try but I can not know what details are missing from a 2000 year old translation let alone one that has been translated into modern English. I can only know what is true in my experience. my personal view and what I feel to some extent is expressed in zhuangzi is...... you as a human are out of touch out of sync with the world because you are human...at some point we may have been less abstract... but now most humans are intense abstract machines pumping out categories groups concepts indentity totally detached from “natural influence“ essentially in our own culturally created reality. This leads us to get in our own way and in the way of understanding certain things in life. Another way to look at it would be this creates pulling in ways that lead to conflict,have little basis in truth , have a certain agenda which aren’t helpful to ourselves but maybe to our abstraction ,group, identity, IMO even if we lived very much under the influence of natural events we would still have a level of unique abstraction from group to group. There’s also an issue of “our nature” I think there’s probably a bit of inherent species specific social, hormonal/emotional and identity/personal safety instinct which definitely cloud judgment . So one outlook ,which does make sense , is to just “go with the flow” With this there’s going to be a bunch of opinions on how to do that. I’m not very clear on whose opinion is what but I hear different sentiments. Like if you shut up and go with the flow you’ll be going the way.. yes the way of abstract humans. This does simply illustrate the idea that if you let things play out you avoid conflict. But what if you’re curious about life and understanding? It’s hard to get that understanding sticking in your one group in your house,in your one abstract human culture. Not so dynamic not so much understanding. What I get from zhuangzi is you want throw yourself into life openly so you can hear the perspectives with as little BS hang ups as possible and he’s talking serious detachment because the bias runs deep. You don’t want to be CLINGING to someone else’s identity trying to make it your own. You want to FOLLOW what you find is true and let it remain open,not create more BS so I see it as being more of a process or outlook then a practical philosophy but idk why you couldnt take what you learn turn it into a system or principles for yourself.. but then I think this is Flirting with going back to where you started..it’s really up to you... anyone who thinks I’m way off let me know, I’m learning...

Pretty new to seriously thinking about daoism and really don’t know any of the practices. It’s good to hear that this is actually something. I agree with the idea that it helps you understand the greater dao.. or Atleast it makes you appreciate that you don’t know... not closing the door keeps you open.. it literally takes a life time or a a really great thinker to get to zhuangzi level, I think. You really appreciate that after it starts clicking. I know that I’m not a slouch in the critical thinking department but it took me a good while, to be sick of the BS in my life, and some moral conflicts to get over myself and see things through that clearer outlook. Your description is my experience. Thanks

I think it takes some serious studying, organizing trial and error to get to the point of having a "solid practical philosophy" which consistently holds to some given principals. Another vote for experience being the best or ?easiest? way to realize something in practice. Problem solving forces you to be present and desire to understand situations will bring you deeper than you normally would. For me being a third or fourth party in a conflict has also made things clearer about how we as people tend to act and get in our own way. Like when you realize you dont have to be right... you're not right because you tell yourself you're right or multiple people can be right in a situation. Probing situations for the "truth" of the situation not just stopping at one solution and closing the door

Sometimes ...a lot of the time... You don't even know you're in you own way. Sometimes you're born into a socially complicated world.. I agree that if you can many times shutting up and using intuition is perfect. There are alt of times that depend on the person (their upbringing or society, insecurity, expectations responsibilities) long list of things that call you to get in the way of yourself., Of understanding/seeing things. Takes work, but the result I would say is helpful in daily life..

Walker, I think you're talking about alot of things here. Many interesting complex topics. You are right that this "practical' philosophy cloud will use will not lead to or be the same as the philosophy of those he has read but he is by admission looking for a limited scope to be useful in affecting things in his life. This is not "daoism" this is "clouds practical daoism" which would probably be better described as "clouds practical philosophy" which is inspired by his perception of useful (in his life) daoist thought and to some people "clouds white University daoism". Doesn't zhuangzi point out that anyone can use the way? I agree this is not at all the point, but it is true? Note that years of energy cultivation and engagement with this aspect of what we call daoism and yet cloud may still may be struggling with these things apparent in the writings..or maybe not?? this is my interest in the "practical" daoism and why I think it's good to discuss. I don't think all the writings are ancient secret knowledge but describe a process of forming a detached objective Outlook as an integral PART and prereqirement for beginning to understand the world. I think this (now to me very apparent part) is put to wayside. I was in fact a dabbler in this respect until over time situations, conflict and thinking in my life linked up with what I had just known as nice curious stories. I may just be a slow person idk I think an effort is made by these writers to put this in the forefront. It is useful and takes effort over time just like the other aspects. So as you point out much of the world's Outlook including the English way of looking at things is at odds with pretty core ideas of daoism. It is a very good point that this alone is a trip hazard but also another perspective to see. I don't claim to be a daoist because I am not them. From what I know, they did not call themselves daoists either... Identity often creates a million useless quarrels. I think walker makes some points that are worth thinking about and while some of it may be pretty presumptuous he did make quite an effort to contribute. We can't just know where someone is coming from and many times that is why having philosophical conversations with strangers is a struggle

I hope the original poster doesn’t mind but to answer the question about where this “practical” Taoist philosophy would come from. i think it could come from any of those and bits of those, everyone’s philosophy will be so,ehow different. I’m not the most knowledgeable person about daoist philosophy but the mindset/perspective is the unique commonality I see. its only really an issue if you want a daoist (trademark) “practical philosophy” . The detached (from self and bias) viewing of the world to see the truer nature, hear multiple perspectives, see interrelations etc for me has been very helpful.. elements of this are also shared with Many other philosophies. What you want out of this philosophy is also personal. You could just use your understanding to manipulate situations to go your way. A dao manipulator. in the broader deeper “not practical” sense it’s hard not to get great variation when you’re talking about sometching which every description is at best an informed guess. Defining the philosophy is up,to the individual, I don’t have a philosophy or system I have thoughts that resonate with things other people have thought, and it’s this curious outlook driven by the want of objective truth and understanding for me that’s practical and useful...sometimes..LOL the original poster might have a much better idea of what defines his philosophy

This is much better to my ears..

Then it’s not for you.. no big deal, personally I don’t think the way is about pretending.. I understand exactly where you’re coming from and to be honest again, in my opinion, if you came from the dao and are in the dao, you will return to the dao. Humans are probably the only creatures manipulating themselves to this extent. Maybe I should start another thread. I’m interested in what people think of so much focus on “mastery” I think this is an interesting topic affecting daily life. Why so much preoccupation of the mind on mastering things? Is mastering things really the way.? Dont get me wrong im a big fan of skill attainment and growing in life. I’m also pretty ignorant to the reasons people do what they do Its intersting to me that so much of the philosophy is about simplifying into a natural flow but so many people still want to be consumed with attainment. Is the idea that because you understand you can use dao hacks on your life and become an attainment monster? is this the way? There’s lots of daoist tooting of its own horn about practical problem solving and most of it through outlook which allows understanding. I’d say its pretty obvious the major daoist texts want you to know the practical benefits....like stoicism...on cosmic acid..

Theres a place for practical philosophical daoism. My interest in is mostly that, while I keep an open mind to esoteric things based on personal experience not others opinions and concepts . It is what it is though I mean daoism is alot of things to alot of people. Zhuangzi is also my favorite. You can entertain and appreciate the practical non esoteric truth seeking the old daoists AND be involved in all the other stuff at the same time though... It's all a matter of perspective, if you can't respect that then.... It takes an honest and secure person to reject their self bias, naturally resyrictive thinking and to see that BOTH can be right. Its a dynamic world. This among other reason I was drawn to zhuangzi It is a rare understanding useful to the world. The older I get the more I see the ramifications and develop more respect for a “kindred spirit”. I might be slow, I’ve never “studied” so take it with a grain of salt, the “manifestations” of these simple ideas lead to clarity (not simplicity but understanding）of the complexity. I don’t know how to describe how useful and interesting it is to experience understanding fall into practical line over and over and continue to become clearer. If anyone has shyed away from digesting Atleast the inner chapters of zhuangzi, you’re missing out. The ideas when taken to heart, in search of truth/understanding (not to be “right”) grow like a tree over the decades.

Does anyone know where i can find a translation for the dingzhou version of the wenzi. this was transcribed from what i understand in 1995.

whats the purpose of empty force?

I'm very surprised this isn't translated yet even in a rough version online hopefully that can change

Hello everyone I'm interested in philosophical daoism and hope to learn more and discuss on these forums

i was diagnosed with social anxiety i don't know if this is the same thing.. it's just shyness made worse by your mind and can develop into a mental prison. My solution had nothing to do with any kind of classical meditation or energy work in fact i don't really understand how these are solutions to a social problem??(i'm also pretty ignorant on the subject so don't take my words to serious) anyway my solutions were exposing myself to social situations forced situations, awkward ones,power struggle situations and letting my my mind go. I was my problem..and not really ME but how i developed to understand social situations and my safety net keeping me from understanding. We all can change we all have fear or have feared. As an adult you have the ability to use your brain to remake who you are based on understanding. so i would say you need more social situations. A real martial art (one that spars or wrestles) can help you to learn that so many of your fears in life are just poor understanding and that you can grow and continuously improve even in the rawer aspect of life. regardless of what you do, you must be an advocate for yourself otherwise you will never find the truth. you have to live to know. the brain and the body work together to continously inform and advance the person throughout life one without the other will never get the full picture in this world. take small steps to change. people arent scary you shouldn't worry so much.