Yoda

Seriously though... that's the weed talking!!! Put me down for a big order of Tao-ism and hold the Buddh-ism, thanks! Maybe I'll be alone here, but I think J2W is all about what's great with Taoism and what's problematic about Buddhism as embodied by the Monkey and the Priest. If it was just the MK and no priest, the whole journey would have only taken a few days with little chance of failure assuming the MK actually cared enough about the mission in the first place. The Priest does score highly when he tears out or accedes to the tearing out the dude's beating heart during the funeral ceremony and I'll be the first to admit that he has a number of seriously mega-siddhis and is a highly focused man, but lots of Taoists have those virtues too. If anyone knows anything about Taoist or Buddhist funeral ceremonies and has read chapter 9, I'd love your thoughts on that whole thing esp the beating heart and liver being tossed into the water thing. Also, Chapter 10 is really great at explaning the Taoism chain of command through the story of the Dragon King and the Fortune Teller... love that story. And the fisherman and the woodcutter arguing at the begining of the chapter is priceless! As it is said... when two people talk on the road there is always someone listening in the grass! Yours, Yoda

I'm confused... Is Gary Olsen the Different Strokes little guy who had a thing for Asian blondes? Or is he the Fantasy Island one?

Openlyhidden, Welcome to Taobums! I love your story! Additional sites that might be of interest to you: advancedyogapractices.com, Trunk's alchemicaltaoism.com, and daoismworld.com. Thank goodness for the internet, huh? Your pal, Yoda

Apepch7, This thread holds a fascination which surpasses the Buddhist philosophy debate I have to say. In many ways, it doesn't get any better than entities-with-benefits and that's why I'll always be on the losing end of this debate! Your pal, Yoda

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that, Well said! Although as a Taoist I take exception to the idea that Taoism needs Buddhism... The Priest's cloistered Buddhist ways nearly nuked the expedition on many occasions. Sure the Bodhisattva air strikes saved the day many times but Taoists have celestial beings too including Kwan Yin... plus it ought to be shameful for the Chinese to go to India for wisdom! Your pal, Yoda

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that, Dr Ruth! She needs to do the sex with entities show asap... all those horny teens thinking they've got a kosher work-around method got another thing coming!!!! Imo, interacting with entities is like taking recreational drugs... the degree of pleasure and enlightenment the drug delivers is in direct proportion to its long term negative side effects. The karma math can arguably have a favorable net bottom line if one considers this life only and keeps the drug use/entity use in appropriate moderation. But considering the karmic damage to one's ancestor lineage and afterlife, recreational drug use and entity enjoyment are out of the question, imo. At first I thought the whole entity/drug thing was harmless but the trip reports coming in from Erowid, "DMT: the Spirit Molecule" book, friends' experiences, my experiences, etc started hinting to me a different story... there was often a desire to attribute "that was good for me" positive thinking to the experiences but I began to find the underlying vibrations troubling and unhealthy... the entities appearing in the DMT book didn't seem very supportive and nurturing although there was often a bliss/healing/enlightenment/pleasure that they would give to the subject but the there was some sort of hidden trade, trickery, or deception going on sort of like what Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that mentions in the above post. Perhaps there is just an innocent little-people prankster vibe where they simply are having a nice game hiding our shoes as reported in fairy tales which is just a harmless dalliance and when we die that's the end of the story, so no harm done. As I said in the Kunlun follow up poll thread, I don't think it will take us dying to find out the rest of the story. I think that a decade or two of collective thinking will crack the case. Yoda

She's blonde now... that's cool! She had a restaurant in Phoenix that I used to go to and it was very good.

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that, Thanks for joining! It's my opinion that J2W is more of a Taoist text than a Buddhist one... but maybe that's just me... I'd love to know if you agree with that thought and how you would support that. My reasoning is that the Monkey King is a trained Taoist and the Priest is the trained Buddhist and the book really is more about the Monkey King.

I've been meaning to start a runners club on taobums, so this thread can be the HQ for any specifically running related thoughts. The basic theory here is that the human body has evolved to function optimally when it is physically active. Running and walking are great ways to correct for today's indoor, sedentary lifestyle. Not too easy that it's boring, but not too hard that it isn't sustainable... it's the perfect groove. Running is great for processing raw energy from other practices such as sexual chikung, standing, and sungazing. Other practices such as visualizations and affirmations can be done with greater effect during the intensified pranayama and connection to the earth experienced during a run. I'm certain that most taobums have had a go at running in the past. With the many lessons learned from chikung plus modern training principles, I'm confident that we can take this puppy to the next level. -Yoda

the Monkey King, while polite, definitely took his teacher for granted and hence had a very brittle connection. After getting kicked out of his lineage he was very chipper and began to crash parties... so a bright student but not a faithful student. Very American!!!

No festival dates, but extremely easy to use: http://www.hko.gov.hk/gts/time/conversion1_text.htm

Marblehead and Mal, The beating heart thing... I didn't catch that the first time around!!! Maybe the Priest is quietly looking at his feet while the others did the dirty work... hard to say... there's only so much Buddhism a 17 year old can handle. We'll have to see how the online translator handled it. Sorry to get ahead of things... I sort of think of chapters 1-8 as prequel stuff. I'm rereading 9, 10 & 11 to the kids... I love those chapters! My daughter has excellent recall too... very impressive. So the story was compiled in the Ming and set in the Tang Dynasty. Chapter 9 really showcases the importance of the examination system in China... that a scholar out of a nothing family can end up marrying a high minister's daughter and rule his very own Chinese State just by getting a great score!!! That's really great! I heard that various emperors and dynasties treated the "examination class" differently... wanting to give smart guys power but not too much power. Often the term of rulership would be limited and they would be moved around on a regular basis was one method of insuring that most power stayed centralized. your pal, Yoda

z00se, Our software can sense your inner mastery!!! Your pal, Yoda

Happy Birthday Father Paul! Your pal, Yoda

I just read chapter 9 to the kids. I forgot that the Priest as a young man rips a beating heart and liver out of someone as part of a funeral ritual... It doesn't say him particularly but there were just 3 people and it referred to "they". Those crazy Buddhist monks!!!

Eternal Student, Welcome to TTBs! Your pal, Yoda

fun thread Teddy! I've always remarked at the short life spans of martial artists and soldiers, etc through history even when you don't include those who die by the sword. I think that is related to what 5ET and ralis are saying... those guys just run too hot for longevity but they have other fish to fry so I'm sure it all works out. I think there are certainly non-martial cultivators who die young and perhaps that is a sign of poor cultivation... I don't know. The type that get too too otherworldly and just drift off or the sort who are following the martial cultivation recipes for maximal energy and blow out. Longevity is definitely a handy thing for a cultivator to have imo... to some extent you have to start over each lifetime. Yogani said that there's a difference between cultivating chi and cultivating the Tao and perhaps there's something to that. Yoda

Vajrahridaya, thanks for the kind words! vsaluki, I'm sure there are Taoist sects who would disagree with the J2W understanding of Taoism. Your pal, Yoda

I guess having a rock for one's parents reduces ancestral baggage a bit, huh? Here's a j2w repost from another thread regarding the relationship between Buddhism and Taoism: I recently finished reading Journey to the West and in that the relationship between Buddhism and Taoism seemed not quite like siblings but more like cousins: The main characters were all Buddhist but the Monkey was Taoism trained and the Priest was Buddhism trained. The Monkey was very wise to the world and more worldly but the Priest was always on his case for killing too much, arguing, etc. The Priest was safely above the world and never killed anyone or cursed, etc but was always very easily manipulated by demons pretending to be Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and lived in a more idealized world. In the book there certainly was conflict between Taoist Kings and Buddhist monasteries and that sort of thing but rarely conflict between Immortals, the Heavenly Kingdom, and the Bodhisattvas and the Buddha. The Buddha was tacitly above the Taoist Gods per the book which doesn't sense that one religion would accept the command structure of another, but I think this does reflect the political realities of China. It's my understanding that the Ming dynasty destroyed many Taoism Temples and converted them to Buddhism which helped set the tone for J2W... that Taoism was officially second fiddle to Buddhism after that point. Which is odd as the Buddhist monastic ideals definitely do not line up with the importance of having children in Chinese culture, but there you have it. So the Monkey King makes the point that both Taoism and Buddhism have their primary focus on the "cultivation of conduct" and ethics which often gets lost in the shuffle in other religions so that is a point of unusual overlap and agreement which seems to be the basis of fairly good overall cooperation between the two religions in J2W. On the other hand, I'm sure many Chinese Taoists are irritated by the fact that a foreign religion from India gained the official upper hand. Another theme in the J2W is that Taoist teachers go to the dark side all the time and that Buddhist teachers tended only to be victimized by evil but do not go evil themselves. Kwan Yin is a Bodhisattva in the story and she has a pet gold fish that goes evil and eats children as a cultivation practice but the Kwan Yin eventually reprimands the fish and returns it to its koi pond. Apparently the fish was able to draw upon Kwan Yin's power to become a demon in the first place and then wanted to enhance its career by taking energy from kids but got busted by the Monkey King who alerted Kwan Yin to her gold fish's rebellion. But that's the level of Buddhist evility. Aside from that, the Buddhists tended to be easy pickings for demons and evil Taoists but remained fairly innocent throughout the book. ~~~~ Imo, the J2W doesn't even start until they get to the birth circumstances of the Priest and the Monkey King gets a second chance from Kwan Yin so I'd vote to keep moving ahead with the reading or even skipping ahead. I'll post my fav chapters at some point. The birth circumstances of the Priest chapters are nothing short of amazing... incredible stuff and possibly the best introduction to Chinese religion ever penned imo. PLOT SPOILER ALERT... Marblehead, since you are going to read it anyways, skip the small print. It's more of an enticement to try to encourage more people to read these chapters: The execution of the Dragon God by the Tang Emperor's minister while playing chess with the Emperor who was trying to stay the execution... then the Emperor is dragged to the King of Hell to plead his case... doesn't get *any* better than that!!!! Fun stuff!!! Yoda

I recently finished reading Journey to the West and in that the relationship between Buddhism and Taoism seemed not quite like siblings but more like cousins: The main characters were all Buddhist but the Monkey was Taoism trained and the Priest was Buddhism trained. The Monkey was very wise to the world and more worldly but the Priest was always on his case for killing too much, arguing, etc. The Priest was safely above the world and never killed anyone or cursed, etc but was always very easily manipulated by demons pretending to be Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and lived in a more idealized world. In the book there certainly was conflict between Taoist Kings and Buddhist monasteries and that sort of thing but rarely conflict between Immortals, the Heavenly Kingdom, and the Bodhisattvas and the Buddha. The Buddha was tacitly above the Taoist Gods per the book which doesn't sense that one religion would accept the command structure of another, but I think this does reflect the political realities of China. It's my understanding that the Ming dynasty destroyed many Taoism Temples and converted them to Buddhism which helped set the tone for J2W... that Taoism was officially second fiddle to Buddhism after that point. Which is odd as the Buddhist monastic ideals definitely do not line up with the importance of having children in Chinese culture, but there you have it. So the Monkey King makes the point that both Taoism and Buddhism have their primary focus on the "cultivation of conduct" and ethics which often gets lost in the shuffle in other religions so that is a point of unusual overlap and agreement which seems to be the basis of fairly good overall cooperation between the two religions in J2W. On the other hand, I'm sure many Chinese Taoists are irritated by the fact that a foreign religion from India gained the official upper hand. Another theme in the J2W is that Taoist teachers go to the dark side all the time and that Buddhist teachers tended only to be victimized by evil but do not go evil themselves. Kwan Yin is a Bodhisattva in the story and she has a pet gold fish that goes evil and eats children as a cultivation practice but the Kwan Yin eventually reprimands the fish and returns it to its koi pond. Apparently the fish was able to draw upon Kwan Yin's power to become a demon in the first place and then wanted to enhance its career by taking energy from kids but got busted by the Monkey King who alerted Kwan Yin to her gold fish's rebellion. But that's the level of Buddhist evility. Aside from that, the Buddhists tended to be easy pickings for demons and evil Taoists but remained fairly innocent throughout the book. Yoda

Mila Now, Thanks for your feedback! I've been on a couple of his conference calls and thought that he had a lot of charisma and power and I really liked his books... definitely a really brilliant guy. I think the essence of a teacher's benefit is found in the lives of the students... if most everyone is improving in most departments of life then that's a good sign. If everyone is improving in all departments of life that's even better! I never took the next step to go to anything in person, so I have no idea what Dr Sha's students go through. Imo, lots of bad teachers steal different energies from different students and often steal in areas that won't show up for awhile. Or they'll steal from all their students' financial energy but say that they are supposed to be otherworldly so that's cool. Your pal, Yoda

Fun story!

I don't know anything about that but my two pals who have been Dr Sha followers don't appear to be into him anymore.

I thought it was cool that MK met a person unable to practice as he had to support his mom but still the Immortal taught him a song he could use. I thought he found his teacher rather quickly and seemed to be an ideal student and learned much more quickly than his peers. He didn't have to work very hard for his enlightenment. Maybe for this reason he falls to become an evil demon. It turns out later it is said that MK is eating people, presumably stealing their energy in classic j2w demon style. There seems to be two forms of energy theft in the book: sly seduction and straight conquest. MK as demon goes the latter road but he can see trickery of seduction instantly when escorting the Priest.

Goldisheavy brings up many good points... how do you get past all that? Specifically, I'd love to hear what any Chinese speakers think about the importance of speaking Chinese plays in understanding Taoism? Thanks! Yoda