damdao

This is, precisely, the book translated by Luk, with Q&A section included and was written by Zhao Bichen. Here another book with more or less the same contents plus some houtian exercises: http://www.amazon.com/Tratado-Alquimia-y-Medicina-Taoísta/dp/images/8478133755

One of the Heiner Fruehauf's masters is an alchemist and works with salt (among other things). Story has that clinical results are good, the only problem were the lab explanations. Link

I'm aware of that. Zhao Bichen has mixed several methods but some say that his main feature is longmen.As far I know, in longmen (and derived methods) they insist in it (erection stuff), because of that Wang Liping was included. I believe that Wuliupai doesn't insist in that sign as the "birth of yang" and defines "stopping the leakage" in a different way. Thanks, I will try to work with the Wuliuxianzong (with time).

So, a conceptual statement deserves a personal reply... I got it. But, just for the record, as Alchemist said I am not from Wuliupai and don't have any intention to impersonate a disciple of such school. I haven't the knowledge they have about the Daoist Canon and Classical Chinese Language and I only know neidan from English translations. But for me is clear that theirs is a school worthy of investigation, and for me it is more important the facts they provide than a personal sense of comfort based on the attachment to a past training. Run with the Dao is, also, be flexible enough to be aware of our own fantasies and constructs. So, if the mainstream view is that neidan and qigong are the same and must be european-western centered in its interpretation I have to be flexible to think that perhaps there is an alternate view worthy of being investigated and learned. And I think that they have provided plenty of proof about their view of neidan based in classical texts.

The book is http://www.amazon.com/Alchemists-Mediums-Magicians-Stories-Mystics/dp/1590306597 and here some quotes from the Introduction: "Alchemists, Mediums, and Magicians is a collection of sketches from Chinese history portraying more than one hundred of the remarkable individuals associated with exceptional knowledge, uncommon artistry, and spiritual leadership over a period of more than two millennia. Compiled under the title Mystic History by Zhang Tianyu, a Taoist priest in the fourteenth century, this collection introduces a broad range of personalities, professions, and pastimes of China’s esoteric elite, from the most illustrious to the utterly obscure. Among them are people who appear to the world as philosophers and scholars, strategists and statesmen, recluses and courtiers, magicians and mediums, philanthropists and educators, alchemists and physicians, seers and soothsayers, priests and paupers, artists and poets. (...) Alchemists, Mediums, and Magicians features stories from the eleventh century B.C.E. to the thirteenth centuryC.E., following the course of orthodox dynastic history. Seeking to renew a unifying link between the esoteric and exoteric dimensions of traditional Chinese culture, in his introduction Zhang Tianyu invokes the father of Chinese historiography for a working definition of Taoism to outline the design of this collection: The Grand Historian wrote, “Taoism has people’s vital spirit unified, acting appropriately without formality, sufficing all people. As for the practical methods, based on the universal order of yin and yang, taking what is good in Confucianism and Moism, distilling the essences of logic and law, they move with the times, change in response to the concrete, establish customs and carry on business in any way appropriate. The instructions are simple and easy to practice; little is done, but with much effect.”" Besides, his reading and translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower is full of commentaries (not innocent ones) about the social integration of the adept and that the long hours of sitting meditation of zen monks is nothing but an expedient to deal with lazy monks. So, a peaceful demeanour and an heremitic quietism doesn't seem to correspond with the big picture.

I think that the "mindless erection" is a tenet from Longmenpai (and as that is found in Zhao Bichen's books) and in some teachers from Wudanshan. In the line of Wang Liping theres is something called "live hour zi" and seems similar to that. Is the 伍柳仙宗 Wuliuxianzong a good source for studying Wuliu teachings?

Daeluin, I understand your point. I posted my post at the same time than yours, so it was not intended to reply you, only the general course taken by the thread. Of course, a contentious tone arise contention but behind the tone and the subjective reaction there is an interesting message. And I think that it could be a very very valuable one: Neidan is for real, not a legend stop mixing qigong trying to produce neidan results, be aware (and beware) of the difference between xiantian and houtian, etc. Besides, we have to remember that the image of the peaceful daoist is an orientalist construct, Cleary (influenced by his sufi readings) devoted an entire book to the rebuttal of that image, so I see nothing undaoist in being very straightforward and direct. I am not censoring you, honesty transpires in your post, only the conclusion (from earlier posts) that Wuliu guys are bad, scammers and are living in small appartments.

I think that this has become a little unfair towards our Wuliu friends. All of us know about school with pledge of secrecy or confidentiality it is not a feature of Wuliupai alone. Leaving aside yoga and buddhist schools, here if you ask some things to the Longmen guys here they wont answer. Besides, it is not that they don't want to share, they teach in seminars and classes, don't write methods. I remember some months ago in reading the Russian forum a guy asked a detail about an exercise and was warned not to write down exercises in the forum, he has to go to a centre and ask personally or in the next seminar. So here we have a regular guy who attended a seminar and knows a neidan exercise asking a detail. I cannot find secrecy here, only following the rules. And a regular guy could learn the basics, like in many other schools. Besides that, I find refreshing that in a time when all is relative and the psychological mumbo-jumbo has taken the place of real achievements some guys rise telling that neidan is a science with technical words and with very definite signs of progress.

Thanks to both of you!

I think that we can leave aside the interpretation based on folk-anthropology and try to understand what the book says. I think that parallel descriptions could be found in others book, for instance Liu Yiming's books. It is like a via negativa. The challenge remains and will remain until one can get the oral instruction, but this is in that way now and was from the beginning. This translation has the merit to say clearly which methods are referring to (some translations are not that clear), and the division made by Opendao makes it even more clear. Of course, it contradicts the discourses of many spiritual teachers but this is a challenge for them because many achievements are only supported by words and manipulative mechanisms. About mopai it is clear that is not neidan and the principles are very different beginning with the use of yin energy, and, at least in the story, giving a good example of ghostly immortality.

An anecdotal question (and in order to keep going the dialogue while waiting the texts), in reading the Huimingjing 慧命經 we found always references to Buddha (and Eva Wong point out to the Huayen School). Is there some connection between the Wuliupai School today and Buddhism (be it in curricular texts or any other way)?

Thank you very much for your willingness to share translations from an orthodox lineage. The English page, although not official is very interesting (quite instructive are the translations of dialogues between the Patriarch and some disciples); the Russian pages and forum too but more difficult to read. We hope to read soon some texts soon.

I was wondering if this two lineages are equally effective and if their goals are the same. And how is that your school can practice both? Are complementary paths, or perhaps the patriarchs are close?

The Russian site of the Wuliupai has some information about it. Perhaps you already know it. I don't know if there is information about others branches/teachers around the world or its Chinese organization, as it seems to be a public lineage perhaps Chinese fluent taobumers can find more information about it.

If you are looking for neidan and taiji perhaps you can try to contact http://www.northerndao.org/ from the wuliupai and yuxianpai lineages.

The two lineages that most atracted me are in this thread, i.e.: wuliupai and xiaoyaopai. Now I will write something about XYP. Referring to what is written in this thread I think (but I have no knowledge) that in the Daozang you can find alchemy based daoism and non-alchemical, with the later I mean: flying to the stars, frolicking among the immortals, etc. i.e. all the methods and imaginery that have an alchemical effect but that in many ways are parallel and prior to the Chung- Lü paradigm. For some reason (historical, sociological, etc.), the Chung-Lu paradigm (and its offsprings) has become the paradigm for explainig and thinking the daoism but actually is only one between many of them. I don't know the history of XYP but there is the possibility that this lineage has a line different of that of sanbao theory in the way that Chung-Lü explains it, so today as the paradigm is the alchemical one we are forced to explain a path with a paradigm that is not its original (but this is only speculation, Can XYP say something about its origin or development? Something not included in the secrecy pledge, of course). Besides that, XYP as we can see in its websites is more than the initiation, you cannot reduce the whole path to that, so it is neither “an instant initiation process” path nor “something that it is not worked at”. You have to do many things like self-introspection, self-correction, work with colleagues, work in the social world, there are tests, etc. In fact, the goal seems to be to fuse or blend the 3 yin souls and the 7 yang spirits in a organic whole in order to produce a fully functional human being, and this seems to me a rather interesting psychological path, it is some facet that sometimes is (seems) lost in the purely alchemical paradigm. In order to fully grasp a little (being an outsider) of this path I recommend to check the Indonesian sites, you can see a sociological dimension, a religious one, communitarian, etc. Of course the language can be a barrier but if you are interested it is worth to work out on it. This are some links that I consider interesting: http://tao-tsm.siutao.com/ http://english.siutao.com/introduction/the_eight_things_need_to_be_developed.php http://intandalamdebu.com/ http://taoindonesia.info/

And is the mechanism similar to that of Longmenpai?

Hi, the sites seems very interesting but it seems that there is no web activity lately. Is there newer posts? Thanks

Here there is a link, http://www.hulu.com/the-great-seer if you decide to watch this serie, it could be useful (or even funny) read at the same time Eva Wong's book on Feng Shui (The complete book of feng shui, or something like that).

About the manual, it seems like the oral instructions for practice given at a seminar or something like that. But, iti is enough for traning or requires more elucidation? I'm thinking about Yin Xian Fa (specially the firsts steps), not the more complex methods.

There is the k-dorama Jeon Woo Chi. It is very entertaining with lots of qi battles. About daoism in movies there are the classics as the Mr. Vampire saga with Ching Yim Lam (the first and last movies are the best, I think). I think that these can be found even in videoshops. Besides, there are some that has no occidental subtitles like The Legend of Wong Tai Sin. Another one (with subs available) is 8 Avatar, this is actually about the 8 immortals. If I remember more titles I'll post later.

Hi! As I am interested in the psychological aspects of Daoism I have found the perspective and narrative of Opening the Dragon Gate very interesting and unique. So I would ask about the exercise (the entire cycle rather) called "Repentance" in Cleary's translation. Are some directives (besides those ones written down in the book) that could be shared openly in order to refine the mind for daoist discipline? Is it a daily exercise? Is "structured thought" a spontaneous process or is self induced? Is it used today in the training or there are adaptions of it? Thanks in advance

The chapter is Refining the Mind (Chapter II) and the pages 15 to 22. The relevant paragraphs that I can see are these: The first exercise the old masters taught Wang Liping, therefore, was a practice called "repentance." What this means in the context of Taoism is cleaning the mind, clearing away mundane influences already infecting the consciousness, getting rid of the rubbish. The way this is done is by temporary isolation and self-examination. The process is subdivided into three parts. First the disciple stays in a dark room for two months with nothing to do. This is supposed to gradually reduce the crudity and wildness in one's nature. The second stage of practice involves sitting still in a dark room for set periods of time, which are progressively lengthened. In the third stage, the disciple is shifted to an ordinary quiet room and required to sit still for at least four hours at a time. p. 15 Lao-tzu said, "Movement overcomes cold, stillness overcomes heat; clear calm is a rectifier of the world." He also said, "Effect emptiness to the extreme, keep stillness steady; as myriad things act in concert, I thereby observe the return." The essential point here is in calm stillness; when stillness reaches its climax, it produces motion, whereby you observe the subtle."Structured thought" means that after body and mind have reached the climax of stillness, the brain conceives a "thing," be it a scene, a personage, or an event. One must think ahead or in retrospect, causing the thing to develop and evolve until a "result" is obtained. When this result contains a definite meaning, the exercise is said to have taken effect. This operation of a thought process is called "structured thought." Now Liping sat quietly in the dark room practicing structured thought according to the directions of his mentor. First he reflected on the fact that even though his body was restrained in a small dark room, his thought could not be locked up and prevented from going out and about. p. 17 One day the Wayfarer of Pure Serenity called Wang Liping to him and asked him what he had gained from his practice. After giving a detailed account of the process and his experiences, the youth finally said, "I can't clear random thoughts from my brain, and I can't attain stillness. Please teach me some method of handling this." This was precisely what the old wizard had in mind."To clear away random thoughts," he began in reply, "first use formal judgment to deal with them. As soon as a random thought arises, immediately pass judgment on it: either declare it right, or declare it wrong, or declare that this is as far as it goes. Having made this determination, stop right away and do not allow rumination to go on and on. Then random thoughts will vanish by themselves, and in this way you can enter into stillness." Returning to the dark room, Wang Liping sat cross-legged, adjusting his body and tuning his breathing, and began to quiet his mind. Now when he was assailed by random thoughts, he used this method to get rid of them. After repeating the process several times, he found that it actually did work. Liping felt happy inside. After another few days of practice, these random thoughts became fewer and fewer day by day, gradually tending to thin out as the exercise of entering stillness gradually developed. p.22

Does anyone know a list of different colours associated with differents trees?

Hi! I was reading this thread http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18847-liu-i-ming-18th-century-taoist-adept/ and a question has arisen. In reading Cleary's translations, and I'm thinking about The Secret of Golden Flower, Awakening to the Tao and Back to the Beginnings, I can see a strong influence of certain topics found in Idries Shah's books about sufism and the spiritual path. Specifically: the importance of living into the society, the integration of spiritual path to a not hermit daily life, flexibility in the practices, psychologic approach to the texts, and the temporary application of practices. Of course, all of these topics are found in classical daoist literature but the questions are: Are this topics emphasized in classics as Cleary render them? How much and long is his interpretation? Does you know living representants of the points of view illustrated by Cleary such as "integrate the illumination to the life" or "understanding in the marketplace"? My impression is that the monastic approach is most prevalent, but I don't know. Thanks in advance