Wayfarer

Hi Roger, Yes, however belief and experience are a little like the gap between explaining something you cannot see and seeing something you cannot explain. So in a sense the THING is the form and the consciousness but if we think in terms of form and consciousness we place ourselves "outside the box" so to speak. The best I can explain it is as follows: That which is without shape finds its form in all things. When that which is without shape is noticed all things lose their form. Heath

Not sure if this will help...the best way I can explain it will seem like a type of evolution but it's not. FIRST STAGE: We have an infant before he or she becomes aware of their self. According to scientists, the test is to put a spot on the forehead of a toddler, put them before a mirror and if they notice the spot should not be there it proves self awareness. Ten animals have also been proved to show self-awareness. Up until this stage an infant has an awareness and the environment around him or her is as though nothing stands out - its all a Something that goes mostly unnoticed until their consciousness becomes greater. SECOND STAGE: We grow aware of self and not-self. We learn to like something but not others and we spend much of our life in one way or other trying to meet the needs of this self, even if that entails helping others. Most of us don't get any further. THIRD STAGE: Is a person who has awakened to SELF or to not-self. They either notice Suchness Presence, suddenly get 'it' from a flash of inspiration e.g. a Koan, or teacher or they realise they cannot locate a self. Various triggers create slightly different experiences of awakening for instance, one might become as trapped in the idea of SELF as they once were of self. Those of a spiritual interest are in second stage, looking towards the third. Yet, here we still have a thought of holiness or selflessness, or emptiness. While we might know Oneness and the object and subject being the same ITness there is still thinking about it, which is not the 'pure state'. FOURTH STAGE: Is a person who has gone beyond thinking about it as they have come to realise that such thoughts distance themselves somehow from the purity of the experience of non-experience. The practice of no-thought can lead to this without having 'awoken'. So the world is not seen with distinct objects however such objects are noticed or else they would be bumped into all the time. Whereas a person at the third stage might think; this tree is Suchness as is that cloud and therefore both are the same; a person in this stage would not think of anything while looking at a cloud. They would be carefree and to some degree thought-free until someone engages with them cognitively. So this is most like the first stage and yet there is subtle difference. Ultimately, these experiences that lead through the various stages are not because we notice our world is created by our mind; it is there whether or not we think. Emptiness and fullness is the same thing. God and not-God is the same thing; so how can there be one or the other? So the original post...For Harrison Ford (Truth) to realise Han Solo (self) is not his true-self he would also lose the idea of there being a Truth. So when what is witnessed is realised as being the same as what witnesses; from that point on there is no thought of either object or subject. If you just stop thinking for a moment, what remains is what is always present, without an idea of their being presence? If we don't think, there can be no ideas

If you are replying to my message, I was addressing it to Zerostao

Sorry if I'm barging in. Just wanted to add something to the OP as below "deci, does someone enlightened and can see complete absolute reality hold hostilities towards others that dont see exactly the same" I see this more like a parent who watches their child make mistakes through a lack of knowing; how can they be angry at a child's innocence? Also, to experience enlightenment is to know it does not exist, if anything, I guess the closest way I could describe it is a sudden lack of ignorance or not-knowing. To know "complete absolute reality" is to know there is no self or other - so for anger to be there means there is still a sense of self lingering. Depending upon what triggered the awakening a person may be as caught in the idea of the absolute or SELF as they once where in self. Ultimately, the 'pure' natural state (for want of a better word) is to not be aware of self or SELF - there just is ISNESS without thought of it being ISNESS. Then the mind is the presence of clear openness, actions arise from the infinite settledness and we live in a kind of calm spaciousness without consciousness of it. If you want to experience it, just be like it, until it finds you where it has always been.

Hi all, Taoism in the west seems to me at least to be in its infancy yet there is a kind of purity to it also. There are various associations such as the American Dragon Gate, British Taoism and those of Spain, France and Belgium - not to mention the Zhengyi 'magical' traditions prominent in the States. These particular examples stick close to their temple/lineages from my limited experience and nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of knowledgeable experienced people on this forum who have deep understanding of the teachings, or perhaps the teachings reflect their deep understanding? We are a little like the old Taoist masters who would come together now and then to chat, cultivate and learn together. So, I wonder do we have a responsibility regarding this that stretches beyond the remit of TaoBums? I ask this because for four years I avoided setting up a Taoist group because I felt it should come to me and not me go to it. I had a few people ask for something to be set but felt like I needed some authentic lineage before doing so yet finally when I did start a group up people came to it like bees to a flower and it seemed to have happened at the right time and it appears to be what people want/need. So how do you wise sages reconcile the "doing-nothing/non-interference" principles with making something available to those who need it? The four years I sat with this, were partly because I wanted to be certain that none of this 'need' was tied to the ego - I felt it was coming from the heart and not the head - which is precisely why I started this subject...something of the heart is calling for this expression. Who am I to argue with it? I guess I cannot be the only one with such thoughts even if they are only vague ones. Best wishes, Heath

Some excellent writes Deci Belle. Nothing to add.

Hello Rene, Having read some of your earlier posts I would think that you already know the answer to this question as I'm sure you have that wisdom but nevertheless it makes for an interesting subject. I came to Taoism about 20 something years ago but for around 15-20 did nothing about it. I then experienced something a kind of spiritual epiphany and rather strangely stumbled across V16 of the TTC I had written in an old Tai Chi note book and saw "this described my experience" and it has become the religious/spiritual practice that best describes my findings and consequently is also the practice I think is best to help others to experience the same. So...how do we cut out the crap if we are to experience something worthwhile? By studying the words of people believed to be awakened, those believed to Know. If we only follow the word of those who 'think' they know, or who intellectually work things out, well we are in trouble really. If we are concerned over the translation we can learn some of the Chinese written language (as I think Chi Dragon reminds us to do) or take a look at a few translations and work with what speaks to us. We can also compare different scriptures such as the Huai Nan Tsu and the TTC...what eventually we come to is the root of their meaning, of practice. What we think they mean, what scholars say they mean and we argue here is superficial to what they mean directly to us. Of course, if you can find a teacher who has 'experienced' these deeper meanings then all the good. This is what I was referring to in my post about the future of Taoism in the West. There are people at TB who 'know', who have 'experienced' and can help clear the path for others. And may be this is the very forum to do it. Marvellous huh?

Although reincarnation is a viewpoint of many religions Karma is mainly Buddhist and Hindu (?). It is said that a Buddha is a person who in awakening steps off the wheel of cause and effect and ends karma. There is also no-birth and no-death. In Taoism there is immortality and also in Christianity (read the opening lines of the Gospel of St Thomas for instance). So if we cannot die and cannot be born we cannot reincarnate. If there is no cause or effect then there can be no karma. Also we are told there is no-self. So in our practice if 'we' think of a 'we' there is a self, so we have to question this, if we trust the teachings. If there is no-self what happens to karma or reincarnation, birth or death? Does that help?

Cat - that's lovely thank you. And Aaron very wise also. Thank you

I think you describe this rather well Baiqi as does everyone here really. I'd like to echo something Seeker of Tao says from my own rather simplistic point of view...(and at the risk of sounding like a broken record!) Your slowing down/not-slowing down quote is exactly how it feels. Stillness is referred to all over Taoism but to me it does not refer to being still, it refers to being settled. When we are settled our energy becomes calm, when we are disturbed emotionally it feels (to me) like something raising from the abdomen area into the chest (hence why people experience shortness of breath when stressed I suppose). I firmly believe, from experience that we have a metaphorical well within us, where its base is at the lower cauldron and the rim is by the solar plexus...if we experience much settled-ness in our life it is as though something drops into this space...this I feel is what is meant by the energy and spirit (tiger and dragon) copulating in the Crimson Hall (around the solar plexus, if I've remembered its name correctly) and the subsequent energy "returning to the root" (of stillness) as it passes through the organs, tan tien, and below. This returning to the root is a secondary meaning to V16 of the TTC/DDJ. So you are sensing this - this is absolutely vital to your cultivation because you are beginning to Notice. 'Being aware of this' has a colourful name too but I forget, something like Entering the path of the Mystic Gate??? What you are becoming aware of is the presence of that which is Immortal; which occurs within us and the same feeling/presence is in things outside of us...so you can feel it there too just as clearly. So my take on this is to just forget about Qi and where it is moving, don't even think about dragons, tigers and hidden chambers just fill your day with tranquillity where possible and when emotions start to 'disturb' your peace - return to stillness, feel yourself spirit or whatever sinking lower down then eventually the 'contents' of this well/cauldron clears, when it does you 'see' what is there. What could be more simple lol? Heath

This is great stuff. I will check out the links. There are pictures in Africa and Egypt of giant skeletons etc so you usually find these myths are based on some truth.

Yes, good point. Essentially, even if I think something really bad it is still the One and not separate - nothing is separate and yet my naming it the "one" distances myself from that I am not separate from. I suppose it is a little like the Bible says - the devil is our thinking (as our thoughts get in the way of noticing God). That's enough thinking from me for now lol.

I will read this, it looks very interesting. Thanks for the link.

I bought the Black Elk Speaks one, so looking forward to getting it. Yes, I appreciate what you mean about your view of the grades...I'd thought perhaps I may be able to help people to get a deeper connection with the "Way/Tao" through nature and the courses would help me to understand the "Druid" angle but as Antares points out, Druidry is lost really - we have brief descriptions from Roman times and have the poetry/songs of Bards and of Ireland to refer which are giving scholars new understanding but even so...no matter where you look it comes back to the same thing...there are either a kind of 'superstitious' belief practices i.e. a drought occurs because we haven't pleased God or there are the 'Realisation' based ways of Buddhism/Taoism - whichever, they get lost beneath endless metaphors and misunderstandings. And what better teacher do we need than the one we all have? I look forward to reading Black Elk with a cup of tea and a cool shady spot under a tree somewhere - that's all the religion I need. I'll come back to you Rene once I've read some of it. Best wishes everyone. Heath

Thanks Cat, what a great name for your son. I will check out Michael Tsarion right away. Apech...agreed, all interesting. And the picture of your cat (if it's yours) is brilliant...it doesn't need to say anything, you can see it is an enlightened sage lol. Rene I've ordered one of Black Elk's books so thanks for that!

Hi Rene, Yes I am a member of OBOD are you? I did their Bardic course recently to discover a bit more about what Druids say about spirituality etc. To be honest I was attracted to the Ovate grade but I can't seem to get the point across to the tutors that I didn't really learn anything new from that bardic course but found it interesting nonetheless - so can't see me doing the other grade. How about you? A great quote by Black Elk - he is mentioned in the Bardic course; about everything in life being like a circle etc. I will see if I can find any of his work. Do I see the links, oh yes. We are all talking about the same Thing one way or another. Good huh?

Hi, thanks for sharing once again. I found it difficult to experience some of these things without the help of someone to share them with. TB is a great forum as there are many people here who speak very eloquently about what they know etc. We are really a little like those ancient Taoist and Zen masters coming together once in a while to discuss the Tao. The key reason for my response here is that I believe things need to 'develop' naturally of their own. What we have been discussing all along are 'triggers' rather than the big bang. You are getting loads and loads of triggers, so if you have not yet had the OMG realisation it can only be a matter of time but it happens of itself. For me, I had started a Buddhist group and began a 2-year foundation course to understand more about it and the second book we read was called the Two Truths. I wondered what was meant by this, and read three hundred pages of Tibetan beliefs of the relative truth but no one seemed to explain what the Absolute truth was. I got frustrated at the course thinking if it is the Truth it will be simple. So I jacked it in, sat in the garden and noticed this presence within but alas it went in a flash. After sitting more, it came back long enough for me to notice it was a presence of ever-lasting stillness - a peace without end. When one day it went from my stomach to my face I wondered if this was my True-Face, etc. Some weeks later while getting out of bed I glanced up at a cloud and felt, saw, heard that same presence in the sky and BAM I got it, the same as getting a joke. And no matter how simple you think it is, it is more simple. In that flash I understood all of Buddhas teachings but for Impermanence and Compassion which I meditated on for about a year until I got it. Some four years on and my understanding is far greater than it was then and it has all come of its own accord by doing what you are doing - paying attention to it. Now while it is true, and it has been said here, thinking of I AM and being aware of I AM is not our natural state - the state of 'complete' reality but I'd argue it is very difficult to arrive at this state of no-thought and no awareness of IT by denying it, as denying it is thinking about denying it! There is a big difference between denying self and experiencing no-self. You are that which already knows. Let it speak to you in its own way - you can decide not to think about it afterwards! Best wishes, Heath

The only experience I have of this is from Reiki...the idea behind them in Reiki is as a tool to focus the mind of the therapist, it works to imagine the energy being drawn into the symbol they are writing as they do it, and acts to concentrate the mind. Essentially, it doesn't alter the energy that is transmitted, though some would argue that the intent is more powerful and therefore so too the healing. I expect that Taoism is a little like this and it is possible the reiki symbols originated there. Fwiw, I think if it is in nature to do this, we would already be doing them naturally. But belief is a funny thing - ask any doctor to explain the power of placebo for instance.

Heath - have you ever merged (or directly shared presence) with another being? Directly sharing presence is the basis of light transmissions. Hi Jeff, no I haven't. I've tried to explain it to people and so far only one person I know of has awakened but that was mainly because I kept forcing the conversation to a particular route rather than directly sharing something. Do you mean in the sense as Buddha with Kashyapa after he awakened on observing the flower and later he transmitted Mind with mind (which I confess to not being sure what this means as I didn't think anything could be 'transmitted')?

Sorry forgot to say in answer to your point about meditation and "It is possible, I believe, to stay in contact with this empty stillness all day without mental strain. To wear it within you. In fact, this stillness seems to exists seperately from intellectual cogitation entirely." I entirely agree. 'Meditation' becomes something that is not sitting down but everything we do. It is a kind of gently holding that presence that space within. So this, is like that 'language' all things speak, it is the energy you refer to also. And out of interest if you are doing an exercise that involves much endurance you can keep your energy within that space and not get as tired. This is what Wang Zhe refers to as Cloud Wandering (at least to me!) Heath

Hello again, The closest way I can explain to the experience of what I think you refer to is 'knowing'. I don't 'think' the Void, connect with it or have communion with it, I am it but to think cognitively is different than it thinking through me. It's like there is a wisdom there that has the answers and there comes a point where I no longer have any questions. I just 'know'. It's listening to the space in us rather than thoughts in us. Such thoughts arise when our ear is deaf to that which doesn't speak. On another level, this and what I said before opens a few big doors...the 'me' that is Heath and the 'you' that is S.Smith are the same thing. I don't believe that this means I can read your thoughts but the knowing "I" have is the knowing "you" have - so we share the Wisdom. Thoughts arise from a metaphorical distancing from IT, whereas its nature is that of knowing without an awareness of knowing - this isn't basic spirituallity lol, so hard to put into words. So a slight difference between our view (or at least how I have interpreted it) is that you describe the space as being a "medium for consciousness to travel through", whereas I see that space as being consciousness itself, so it has nowhere to travel - our idea of distance relies on there being more than one thing but when there is only One, there is neither here nor there, so nothing travels - the Heath and the S.Smith are everywhere, as everywhere is nowhere, there is only a single place. Your 'connection' may be much stronger and more developed than mine - it something for you to explore for yourself and not take my understanding as being true. To me, everything speaks a single language. When you are Aware of the silence that speaks, it can be seen in animals, it speaks through plants and through rocks - we are all speaking the same language but we don't notice it generally unless we first notice the Silence. So you may be right and I may be wrong; perhaps this 'space' allows for telepathy, for astral projection etc. The one thing I am certain of is that is the Nameless. And when we have known it for sometime (depending upon the trigger that caused the awakening to it), we reach a stage where we do not think about 'IT', we go about being without thinking of being - so there is an unconscious engagement with not-thinking. Like how we were before around 18 months old; all appears like a something but we are not yet aware we are different from that something. Hope this helps and sorry to have waffled on. Best wishes and hope to continue this wonderful discussion. Heath

deleted this post as probably confused matters rather than helped

Ssmith7: welcome to the Beauty. The stillness is present everywhere as you say, I personally think it helps to describe it as Settledness and in that way people we are talking with don't think it refers to a state of not-moving; something that is flying or running can be equally still. This presence is the expression of "That-Which-Is" - read the Tao Te Ching V16 for instance, or the Psalms for "Be still and know that I am God" or Buddha in the Sutra of Complete Enlightenment "following enlightenment, cultivate stillness"...this is the Oneness of IT. So the consciousness that you sense is ITs consciousness and not individual thought, it is the wisdom we each share that is timeless and is not added to or detracted from during our lives. The stillness you hold contact with throughout the day is your True-Self; that which requires no thought. This True-Self, is the true-face of all things for they only share a single profile - now you have begun to see it, feel it, know it. This is why the old zen masters would say "regard the inanimate to know the Self". It is both outside your body and within it because your body is not what you are; you are without boundary, that which is vast but takes up no space. If you think 'you' and 'other-than-you' still exist - try this exercise: hold contact with the feeling of the presence of stillness within you. Look to clouds (particularly on a bright day) or to the stillness of trees (especially evergreen) then you will 'know' beyond the intellect that you are both within and without, you are One. Forgive me if you are 'there' already. It is the emptiness that is full, the fullness that is empty. Wonderful. Heath

Thanks Basher what a lovely response. I'm glad to hear about the Purple Cloud Temple as it has been an iconic symbol of Taoism for centuries, that said, we are no different in the West with our iconic cathedrals etc...it is of course their significance that attracts the tourists to begin with. The Awen is a flow, it Welsh for breath. It is the same principle as the I-Ching and in Druidry it is seen as the energy of the Sacred coming through us as an expression of creativity. So, to be close to the Divine is to create. I personally believe that to be close to the Divine is to be tranquil and not create as to want to create is to overlook the Oneness of all that Is. And totally agree that Wu Wei is living in that flow of effortless effort. So I guess our main difference in approach is that to Know the One is to realise nothing needs to be created for the One cannot be improved upon. We think the One creates but it is that which is uncreated and all 'things' are an expression of it, not because they are individual manifestations of it or it flows through them intrinsically but that IT is IT. Nothing comes into creation or goes out of creation. So, yes, creativity can be a spiritual experience, an internalising and externalising of our spirit etc to me though (and no big deal, so no need for anyone to respond), creating takes us away, metaphorically, from that which is uncreated. Anyway, back to David, nice to have 'met' you and for our paths to have crossed. Many thanks Basher! Heath

It is the purpose of Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism etc etc. We think there is a difference between the object and ourselves and we go through life overlooking what is right before our eyes. The few that do 'see' realise they are not a 'they', that their body is the same as what is not the body, their mind is the same as what is not the mind. This is the purpose of Taoism for sure. Even the endless energy exercises found in Taoism are a poor second to Realising. Such a person comes to know that there are no individual aspects of this and that, there are no differences to bring into harmony - if there is no object or subject how can anything be brought into harmony? It has nothing to be in balance with. So yes, our Nature is to see there are no heads or tails, not even a coin. We leave this 'perspective' when we learn of a 'self' - and we find ourselves in the world we live in, in the sickness of humanity that is constantly trying to achieve unaware there is nothing to achieve, or never being at peace by overlooking that which is always at peace. That's the reason we cultivate, is it not? Because even though we may not 'know', we trust there is a way that is different than the way we live, we believe there is something more profound - it aches in our heart for expression and knowing. So those who practice wish to return to that pure state of knowing but not-knowing, of being carefree, of knowing they are that which can never die and in being completely at peace no matter how the world around them tries to disturb that peace.