Wayfarer

Hello again RBSA hope you don't mind me keep responding - interesting conversation. Tao, God, Buddha-Nature, True-Self, Void, Emptiness - different names for the same thing. What Buddha noticed in the Morning Star is the same thing Jesus found in the sky. The True-Self Boddhidharma saw in a cave is no different to the Christ Mary Magdalene witnessed in a cave after the crucifixion. What Kashyapa noticed in the flower is the same thing Moses saw alight in a bush. Forget the names, the different religious books and who said what was created in so many days...Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism come from the same point - they may have 'become' different but their root is the same as it stems from an attempt to describe a single Oneness that is expressed all around and within us but is rarely noticed. God did not create the earth and heaven. Earth, heaven and God are not different they are not three separate things. The Tao did not create Two. Two does not exist. For God to create the earth is to imply that the earth is somehow separate from God, that a being has created a planet and may occasionally watch over it. These thoughts take people away from the Truth. When Jesus said "I am the light" he did not mean that only he was the son of God but that everything is the son of God; the Father and the Son are not separate. If you look at a tree it will show you something, if you observe a cloud you might begin to notice that same thing, then if you look to your self you will find it there also. Does it not make sense that if all is One, that if the things you see around you are not a 'they' but an 'it' that the quality of that 'itness' can potentially be noticed everywhere you look? Separation only occurs in false thinking and Wrong View (opposite of Buddhist Right View). Like the disciples asked Jesus "where must we stand to enter the Kingdom of the Father" and he casually said "right here". Does this not tell you that heaven, the place of God is right where you already are? When Jesus said "split open a piece of wood and find me there" does this not mean that the 'me' he refers to is the One that brings all things together. Does the word Holy not come from the old Greek "Holos" meaning to "make one"? Why would the word Holy be used to describe the Divine when the word means to make things one, if the Sacred is separate from us? As the Song of Trusting the Heart says, its our dualistic thinking that takes us away from the Truth. Whenever we think, is the Void God, or is Tao different than God, is heaven other than earth, is black different than white - we have duality. We must trust that these old masters from different religions, different eras and parts of the world who all say the same have Noticed something that is worth noticing. The starting point of that journey is to question where you see duality in your thinking and in the world around you. Hope this helps! Heath

There cannot be an everyone except the One. In realising the One, even the one falls away. To be caught in thoughts of there being One is the same as being trapped by thoughts of Self. The One did not make two (Yin and Yang), two did not make three. We see 'difference' because we don't notice sameness. When sameness is recognised what was yin and what was yang returns to the one - though this returning is something of our concept and not anything that happens. Wherever there are thoughts of TWO we are on the wrong path, we are diverting ourselves from the truth. So if there is duality in our thinking this is the area we must investigate - this I think is what Chuang Tzu referred to. It is what Buddha referred to by saying our suffering arises from delusion and our peace occurs from Right View. Hope this helps )

Hello again RBSA - it might help to think of the world as being 'void of distinctions'. There isn't a void as such - all there is, is what you see around you but that 'something' is void of a label or a description. So, following your initial thread and selecting two opposites - Good and Bad, large and small, black and white - whichever you prefer...there is nothing between them - and I don't mean there is 'Nothing' between them (! - damn words) if for a moment we just call the Void "it" then black is it, white is it, and anything in between is it. *It, it, it* So nothing comes or goes. Nothing arrives or leaves. Nothing draws near or becomes more distant. What you wish to 'demolish' is it and after you have demolished it, it is still it. So to follow your own line of thinking and experiences you may wish to develop them further by investigating "what is this 'void' that comes before me?" and "what is this object/concept that is the opposite of another?", then "what is this that thinks, that treasures?" - it all leads one way my friend; to a finding of how things is. Best of luck, Heath

sorry double posted by mistake ;o)

Thanks for that. Just a thought - if there is no self, how much less so is there other than self?

Hi there NiveQ, I would just like to say a few things, maybe they will help I don't know. I too am in a job that although is great and I should be happy with it my spiritual practice and experiences lead me to find it hollow and unsatisfying. The heart does not understand money and material things for its language is that of the spirit and no matter how we might talk ourselves into liking or appreciating something more if we don't love it from our core we will never convince ourselves. I gave myself a three-five year plan (very Taoist lol!) to change my 'working' life for something that would give me money (far less) but more satisfaction. The reason I'm writing to you is because of what I am going to say next: I imagined myself, my life and my practice to be like an orchard of fruit trees. Just go with this image for a sec; I buy some land, see this orchard and notice the previous owner has developed it using pesticides, fertilisers and other chemicals - all artificial stuff that damages the land and the fruit. The earth that these trees take their sustenance from is weak and as a consequence the trees are weak - they can't fight disease and the fruit they bear isn't very nutritious. So this is like being in a job or living a life you don't want and as a consequence you are not the person you feel you could be. To suddenly stop using chemicals and go 'organic' would have a devastating effect because the soil and the trees are not strong enough yet for the change but this does not mean they never will be. So therefore, we need to be gentle with ourselves. Even Lao Tzu says that the way of the Tao is one of softness and openness. Gradually bring about the change you want to see, nourish your 'earth' your foundations so they become richer, nurture your heart so it will soon bear ripe fruit - then like the orchard you will be strong, you will have good solid roots, you will be able to fight the 'disease' of whatever comes your way but most of all you will be natural, you will be as your heart wishes to be. For me, that has meant taking a few extra courses to re-train. In doing so I've realised I'm not as good at a few things than I thought I was but boy am I better than a year ago. Just to be walking in the right direction will make you feel better. Also remember, that the path we take is of less importance than the direction in which we go. As for the other stuff, your energy, your mother and so on. You might find the I-Ching useful. If you are slow and quiet you can begin to sense when the energy is right for you to act, you can become aware of it approaching and degenerating. You might on some days feel that even the simplest of things aren't working for you - then this is time to be like the small stream that makes its way down the mountain; sometimes it needs to go inside the mountain away from the harsh environment to come out stronger further below. Whatever happens it is not possible for you to fail. You are already the most pure and holy presence. Maybe you need the time to notice it, to remember it. Perhaps view things as for 'life' and not where you are now. Don't worry what others think, unless they are Awakened what they think is wrong! Take it easy buddy, cut yourself some slack. Don't rush into something for the sake of it be simple like a flower who blossoms when the season is right. Heath

Well from the stuff I've read there are two different ideas regarding Immortality (and I'm sure it is on TB somewhere too): 1) Practise qigong, eat the right stuff, save your energy, don't leak energy from worrying blah blah, you live longer. 2) Having meditated, calmed your energy (Tiger) so it settles to the place of the spirit (Dragon) in the Dantien - the two copulate (oh yes) and then the stillness of Tao is known - which I guess is just a way of saying eventually you notice a different presence; an undisturbed pooling of something in or around your gut. Ok, still not immortal. A person who then notices the same presence outside of them Awakens to the oneness of inside and outside being the same. All things share a common trait (because they are all an IT) and therefore when it is noticed in one object it is then seen everywhere. Hence Buddhist tradition saying Buddha awakened when glancing up at the planet Venus then seeing its light everywhere. Whatever happens - a Oneness is known that makes you realise no matter what happens to you, you remain that oneness. I think Dogen said something similar when discussing time with students - "if you take some wood, burn it then view the ashes as the future tense of the wood, you misunderstand...wood is Suchness expressed as wood, ash is Suchness expressed as ash"...therefore the Suchness of wood has not changed by being burned. It is the Suchness that is immortal. To know this, a person must awaken to the fact they are not distinct. Hope that helps! Heath

I just want to add a couple of quick points here: > From my experience animals are awakened. They are very much aware of the nature of Tao/God/Buddha-Nature but don't realise it as something other than the norm. So they realise without doing and do without realising. I have been totally blessed to live with a cat for eleven years that was the most spiritual animal I've known, sadly it was killed by a dog on Saturday but that's another story. If we watch horses, cattle, cats and birds for a while we will begin to see how settled they are, how at ease and still their nature is. That nature is also our nature, only we've lost connection with it. > Regarding immortality and animals. I view this as different than the Immortality of Taoism and Buddhism where it is realised through awakening that even in death one's truth remains unchanged. If you study Chinese Longevity texts and read literature regarding animal wellbeing you will find the following points keep reoccurring: 1) By remaining settled, energy remains undisturbed and is therefore not 'leaked' by worry, anxiety or thinking and therefore our qi energy remains potent. 2) The opposite to what we tend to believe in the West...by slowing our metabolism we burn less energy and therefore waste less and consequently we need to eat less. When we waste energy we need to replace it so we eat more. When we practise Qigong we also get energy from another source and find we eat less...well animals practise qigong just by living naturally. So in nature we find that the creatures that do less, move slowly and eat little live the longest. Thanks, Heath

Hi Eccentric, Just forgetting higher and lower self for a moment what I guess you are really asking is how you can 'employ' the True-Self, Buddha-Nature, Innate Wisdom to guide your actions. Here's how at least in my experience so take from it what you will: For the sake of just getting this down I am going to use the words Holy and Sacred to describe our 'Truth' but you could use Buddha Nature. Either way, it could be argued that to see something as holy is to miss the point...but for your argument here goes... This 'holy' thing is what we are and consequently there is not a 'we'. So the holy part of me, is the holy part of you; it is the same. This Sacredness has always been present (it is all that is present), it will always be here right where we are and we can have Communion with it (forget 'we' and 'it'). This Voice does not appear to us like our normal thoughts but it can easily be accessed and will already be speaking to you. It is what we call intuition, or we know it 'deep down', or 'that person spoke from their heart and not their head'. How it communicates is a Knowing. So if you have ever been about to argue with someone or say something not nice and suddenly you Know not to say that or it will hurt them - this is the Knowing. Often we ignore it and say it anyway, only to regret it later. So this 'voice' is very subtle. When a person speaks from the voice we know on a deep level they are right because their true-heart communicates directly with our true-heart (both a single thing) and there is less analysis and judgement made here - unless of course our conscious mind is so used to directing us. To notice what is subtle you have to turn down the volume of your thinking, so you can hear OR you can pay more attention to the moments where the Knowing comes to you. For instance, when a decision must be made - do I turn left here or right. See what 'feels' correct in your gut - your gut instinct. The more you do this the more you notice it and the greater its influence in your life. Finally, the common way to become aware of it is silent contemplation. Of course our thinking mind will be trying to fill the silence but eventually it begins to quieten naturally. Once this occurs the practice of inner contemplation or meditation is like the sun shining on a tiny flower. Our new focus helps it to blossom and become a greater influence in our life. The holy way, is the way of silence and stillness. Compassion arises naturally of itself and only in the present moment. So to find your holy truth, act holy, be tranquil. The less you DO the more you can BE holy. It is our DOING that prevents us from BEING. Serenely settled. As for the soul. In my experience everything is a single soul, the suchness and the reason we have never found it is because we are using it to find itself. Best wishes and hope this helps, Heath PS: I forgot to add...the Knowing/Voice always speaks calmly for IT is undisturbed. So if we hear a voice telling us to do something, or sounds frantic it will be our own consciousness and not the Knowing. Ultimately, our conscious thinking is also IT so there is no distinction between the two but just letting go of the normal chatter we start to notice something else in the silence. Again, the clue is stillness and silence - if it comes to you that way then it is Real.

A good question. What Buddha awakened to was the presence of God, he just didn't call it God. To have Right View is to see the presence of God in all things, knowing such objects and creatures are a single itness. So what Buddha noticed in Venus, Jesus noticed in the sky while being baptised and Moses saw alight in the bush. This is not a God that is separate...we are that God but have forgotten. To awaken is to notice once again. When we are awake to what is holy we find Nirvana for it is everywhere, it is all. Nothing exists other than God however to realise this is to know God does not exist. Terms such as void, emptiness or Nirvana do not mean anything...if you Awaken you know emptiness is it and fullness is it, there is only distinction when there is delusion. So in answer to your question it is not possible for a person to know one and not the other, if this is so they still view the world through duality. What ever name you give to anything is to create distinction. When there is difference it is because that person is still deluded. If you want to know God the Bible said all you need to do in a single sentence...Be still and know God. Why? Because God is expressed in all things including us as a settled presence, an endless pool of undisturbed stillness. To come to notice one must manifest the same qualities as God...this is how you notice what you and things are.

Just a thought fwiw and I'm not trying to pick you up on what you say, just hoping to prevent you from falling into a trap: The idea of making progress...this is when we can invite the inner-expert into our meditation practice where a thought arrives such as "well, you're not breathing as deeply as yesterday" or "at this rate you will never be able to do it" and "this is it, we've got it!" etc. These thoughts arise because we are doing or trying to do something. If we think about our breath going in and out or how our experience relates to our aspiration we are not meditating as we are not in the present moment. We are doing. For instance, if I want go and lie on the grass to watch the clouds drifting by how can the inner expert, the conscious mind intervene? Sure, maybe thoughts arise as my mind begins to relax but how do I aspire to watch clouds better in a year's time or how can I benchmark my progress? I can't. I can only be. So, to be better at cloud watching do I need to mess around with the breath? Do I need to force it somewhere, is this not a doing? Buddhism and Taoism are practices of softness and openness. When we have expectations we don't give ourselves the chance to respond naturally to how we are in the moment, so we close ourselves, we begin the practice with a kind of statement of intent but what is that lead by if not the ego? In not-doing, in doing nothing we can BE. There is nothing for you to do - this is your birthright. You have known how to breathe all your life but now you don't know how to relax. In doing nothing, all comes of its own accord. Your body will become gentle and unfolding like a flower that blossoms as the fragrance of what is sacred begins to be remembered. The Dantien does not exist, it is a metaphor, the cauldron whose base is closed beneath our navel (by how we sit) and whose brim lies around the solar plexus - here is where the sacred presence is revealed to us. When we relax, we settle. When we settle, the 'water' in the cauldron becomes still, when this happens it clears and the sacred is unveiled. All of these are metaphors to help explain what happens during first noticing the true-self. So we hear about the cauldron, the Dantien and we focus our attention there, we take our breath down there all to realise what is already present, but what is Present reveals itself to you - this is not something 'you' do. All you need is to do nothing. The breath will take care of itself, the body will remember in its own way, the mind will become calm without effort, then slowly, gradually our truth unfolds until we Notice. It is our DOING that masks this Truth. Heath

Just breathe as you are doing buddy. Meditation is not about slowing the breath, that comes as a consequence of meditation and a regular light breath is cool. Forget the breath because if you don't your meditation becomes a doing and it should be a being. Its purpose is in your slowing down and doing nothing you begin to notice what is present within. You can't do that if you are worrying about your breath. Sit, relax, forget the breath, forget you are meditating - then what is present will blossom as a consequence. Good luck, Heath

http://www.taoists.co.uk/events.htm

Excellent point thank you

Just a different angle - something I have been discussing with Boy of late: If you find that you have experienced deeply spiritual awakenings and they have afforded you an insight into various scriptures that might really help people but you are not a teacher and you don't have a spiritual practice or tradition but you would like to help people - what would you do? What would be your approach - would you start a group yourself and see who comes? Would you align yourself with a religion that seems to best fit what you have experienced in the hope you can learn to become a teacher? Bearing in mind that in Taoism there is the teaching of non-intiation of action - how would you reconcile that with a heart that is telling you to show people? Also fwiw, something thelerner said "And then there are people who don't teach, but just there presence is a lesson." - this is how I would answer my own questions I guess but I would love to know your's. Heath

Hi everyone, I apologise. I didn't mean to stress anyone or appear gimmicky just that I wondered if this is what the ancients meant when they said we turn invisible. I don't encourage skulking around woods LOL. If something was at the same energy level as everything else we wouldn't see it either so it can't turn invisible but for sure can go unnoticed. That's all. I agree also that being on a forum can feel stressful at times as you can feel you need to justify your point or show people the 'error' of their ways etc bit hopefully overall it all comes good. Happy cultivating. I'm going to be away for a few weeks so leave you in peace. H.

Hi thanks for the response, I assume you refer to my original post, if not ignore this message. No magic here or psychic powers and although you may feel invisibility is not the path...not being noticed is very much a consequence of being on the path - in fact it is central to the path, it is what Taoism is about - stepping in line with the way of the nameless, the Tao. When we do so we become like the presence of Nature, our original grace and blend with it therefore realising what we are, what most of us haven't yet. It is the central point to all religions and spiritual traditions - awakening to God/Tao/the Nameless and how it is expressed in the world around and within us. As people, we are mostly ignorant of what is holy and unawake to it, we live in a way that is out of step with its nature and therefore disturb ourselves and nature. A sage would not. A mystic would be calm and still for this is the expression of Tao. Once Noticed, anger and movement is also Tao but emotions and attachments do not occur so anger does not happen. Once this is known, life is not as once thought - there are no 'lifetimes' hence why Taoists talk of Immortals and why the Gospels said that "he who understands will not die." Hope this helps. Keep off the drugs though!

Thanks for the reply Xabir and I appreciate the effort you have made. Sadly not all of what I have read speaks to me of my experiences (and I mean some of the more basic/beginning stuff). Perhaps this is why I turned to Taoism rather than Zen/Buddhism which (sorry everyone) I find over complicates what is simple. So at the risk of sound simplistic and I appreciate to Xabir and people of the Awakening store website will not agree but I know for sure I am learning something new all the time, so I am not dismissing anything either. There is a key difference between the author's experience (in your first link) and mine (and I am not in anyway denying or trying to diminish those experiences). I cannot understand how I AM can be noticed but an idea of self still remains. Maybe this comes down to interpretation. As alluded to already I noticed a presence which I believed (but didn't know for certain) was my true-self within me however I knew for sure when I noticed I AM in a cloud and knew (whether you agree?) Oneness and Nothingness is same - no matter what distinctions we give to concepts and stages there actually are none. When I say 'see' in a cloud I don't mean a ME seeing an IT, I looked, I saw, I felt, I knew, I understood instantly. This Noticing is not the same as looking at an 'other' in the same way perhaps that a person who hears their conscious mind thinking believes it is not different than them. So I best explain things as follows: When the Source is realised, while nothing has changed, the person that was you becomes the Source (which they were anyway but without realising). As there is nothing other than the Source and nothing beyond it that can look at it and name it essentially neither IT, or other than IT, exist - but I find that doesn't help anyone to notice it or develop understanding, so we have to say 'look here', 'focus within' etc etc. The YOU that has NOTICED is no longer yet remains unchanged, WE do not merge with something or be like a drop falling into a great ocean (and become lost by it) we BECOME IT, we become what we already were - the void that doesn't exist and is empty of distinctions. Words, words, words, how frustratingly limiting!!! We BECOME nothing. But we were that anyway before we realised. Okay, I doubt we will see eye-to-eye but I accept that. What I have learned in the years since noticing is that there 'appears' to be many different ways of realising and then bringing and deepening that understanding. So here is a toast to us all, all on the path, all interested in the same thing. If you want to reply Xabir I will read with interest but I am conscious we have swamped this forum message and likely given people headache. Take care my friend and I will keep a keen interest on the website blog you have introduced me to and I sincerely look forward to learning new things. Best wishes, Heath

Hello again Xabir, I am not as technically adept (in a religious sense) as I find these 'stages' and so on quite complicated. I agree with much of what you have written but don't agree at all with what Julian Baggini says. So here, based on my experiences are the 'stages' as I see them and I would love to know of more as despite these experiences I find I am learning more every day. 1) Through the practice of stillness we settle our mind and energy and eventually notice a different feeling emerge within us (stomach, solar plexus area). This feeling expresses itself as a deep pool of stillness. I think Thusness described it as something like a void. 2) Through silent contemplation we become more aware of our innate-wisdom which speaks to us from a different place than the thoughts that arise from our head, our thinking though I am not saying the two are different. 3) The same feeling expressed in our self can be noticed outside of us. So we are in effect awakening to a kind of Presence that 'feels', appears, seems the same as that within us - then we realise what is inside and outside is the same. This is not something in our core - there is no core. So this is why (to me) the ancients would point unawakened people to inanimate objects to realise the presence of what is still, what is settled. And it is why I said 'look to clouds to notice IT' essentially when one realises IT, then knows IT is everywhere, that notion of IT disappears as there is nowhere else it can go - unless you are stuck there I guess? 4) Though there is not a difference between outside and inside the awakened person can still believe that even though he or she is One, there is still yet a Holy Presence that is in communication with them - even if this is a holiness that is not apart from them. This point dissipates as the feeling of sacredness is replaced by a knowing one is ordinary. There is no difference between the enlightened and unenlightened - the two do not exist as such. No foreground, no background, no other, no self. 5) In knowing that all is permanent and nothing changes; that what is holy is what is ordinary and what is empty is what is full the mind lets go of this 'knowing' as holding on to it becomes pointless. Consequently, such a person then regards the world with, I don't know, a blankness, a not-seeing or not engaging with. So take for instance a stream that begins to freeze; an unawake person sees the water and the ice and makes judgements based on those connections, an awakened person knows that the water and ice or not different and although both are seen the response to either is not different, finally, the person who goes beyond both looks at water and sees water and observes ice as ice but responds to neither. This is going beyond distinctions while noticing difference through the lens of no-difference. 6) Such a person being at ease with the world becomes care-free and innocent. I see this almost like how a cat views the world - it sees change but pays no attention to it. Such a person remains settled whatever the action as their thoughts and peace remain undisturbed. Ultimately, such a person has gone through these stages a) knowing distinctions do not occur and all is one b ) if there is only oneness any ideas of that 'oneness' create something other than what it is and eventually thoughts of this also vanish and c) the world of change is viewed but without any sensation or attachment to it - hence trees are green, mountains are white but they are what they are, what it is. Thoughts of oneness have gone, thoughts of self have gone, ideas of holiness have vanished, ideas of permanence/impermanence are not considered. Please fill in any gaps (or someone else lol) or add where I go next as there is so much more to this experience than what we have been discussing here and it is all wonderful. Heath

Duplicate post sorry

Hey Xabir, An interesting link. At the time of writing the blog this person seems to me to have had deep experiences but has yet to awaken. This can be noticed due to their explanation of object, subject and all things intrinsically share the same essence. If there is only Oneness how does difference appear? If all is a permanent Suchness how can change occur? If there is not-two how can an essence be shared? An awakened person can answer this.

Manitou is right. We simply need to look within to find the answers, the guidance. Being on the 'Right Path' is not a choice, it is not an active decision but a way of being. If you look to the Buddhist Four Noble Truths and specifically the Eightfold Noble Path we see that we cannot have Right Action, Right Speech, Right Awareness and so on unless we first have Right View. So we can have Right View by quietly becoming aware of the presence of our True Self within or noticing it outside of us. All religions offer the practice of quiet contemplation/meditation and stillness, this is because what is Holy is expressed silently and as a settled quality so the more tranquil and still we become the more we fall in line with it and the greater our chance of Noticing it. Here is the key point: there is a Holy way of being, it is being as the Holy. When we become soft, gentle, peaceful, calm, silent and still we nurture our true-heart and this begins to be felt and to blossom within us. When this is the central point of focus and mindfulness in our lives what need is there for a moral code? Commandments are only present because people have lost touch with what is holy; the Sacred Tao, Buddha, God. Following Awakening, we then learn how to integrate this quality into our lives - this is where the path of truth begins. Heath

We are not enlightened unless we have awakened to Buddha-Nature/God. IT has an actual presence and expression. What we are is IT but our lack of experiencing IT is what causes us to act in ways that are unnatural and ultimately harming. So you could say, isn't it enough to know I am God? No. Because saying it is not the same as experiencing and then understanding it and until this happens every action and thought is viewed through the lens of wrong view and as a consequence we 'DO', we strive, we achieve, we want, we like, we dislike, we hope, we search for purpose and so on. When what we want is to 'BE'. No matter where we live, our whole society and culture is tainted and afflicted by this wrong view - the opposite of Buddha's first teaching; Right View. We cannot be Awareness/Conscious unless we are aware and conscious. While being aware/conscious does not alter what we are, it certainly affects what we do and how we be. To our head it may be enough to know on an intellectual level but at our heart, our core, IT calls for its voice to be noticed and while ignored we cannot know happiness or lasting peace. Heath