Long Yun

Ok guys and gals, I've been fascinated with this for a long time, but I'm only now considering doing it diligently. I know this has been briefly talked about in other posts, but I'd like to go into a little greater detail. What experiences have you all had with this method, and which translation do you think is best? I have both Wilhelm and Cleary, but I think I heard there's an Eva Wong version too. Anyway, I'd love some input and please keep it civil and intelligent. None of this "well, you're stupid 'cause Cleary's stupid" stuff. Thanks. But here's what I'd like to get deeper knowledge in: Wilhelm's version claims to have a teacher behind it explaining it to him. Also, it describes "circulating the light" which I am assuming is either the microcosmic orbit or a very similar practice. (we can get into what the light is later, as I've heard some dispute from time to time) Cleary's version claims that Wilhelm was working with an incorrect translation or something, and that his scholarship and proficiency in Chinese allow him to do a better job. Also, it describes "turning the light around" which I am assuming is something like inward gazing or Zen-like meditation. Both are good practices, but which is supposed to be "The Secret of the Golden Flower" ??? Peace.

Hi everyone, I recently had a discussion with Drew Hemple, who gave me some good straight answers on a question I had, which was, "Is Spring Forest Qigong a total approach to Inner Alchemy?" He said that it was, and that he had used "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" as a practice guide along with Spring Forest. I thought that this was great, so I asked which exercises in Spring Forest correllate to the practices described when talking about Inner Alchemy (Jing, Chi, Shen, Pill-forming, etc.) Drew said, "It's important to consider the practice as a WHOLE with each exercise complementing the other." I totally agree with this, but to indulge my curiosity, I wanted to run this by you all: According to my current knowledge (please correct any mistakes you see here, I'm not perfect!) the process of Inner Alchemy as described in "Cultivating Stillness" (translated by Eva Wong) is as follows: The Birth of Yang This is the foundation practice of "lighting the stove" or activating the lower dantian. Gathering Jing Purifying (Transmuting) Jing into Chi Gathering Chi Purifying Chi into Shen Gathering Shen Merging with Earlier Heaven Formation of the Pill Sealing off "the container" by dissolving emotion and desire Microcosmic Orbit This joins kan and li and recovers chien and kun What really struck me as I was reading the Spring Forest Level One Manual, was how similar all of it was in comparison (without just giving away Master Lin's book...): Throughout, Master Lin maintains that we need to quote, "Go into the emptiness" which I think we all agree on. Exercises Beginning the Universe Pulls energy into the lower dantian (lighting the stove?) Forming of Yin and Yang Moving of Yin and Yang Breathing the Universe Again pulling into the dantian Joining Yin and Yang Harmony of the Universe 7 Steps of New Life This acts as a bellows (on the stove?) Harvesting Qi Rubbing exercise that seals the body Meditations Small Universe Waterwheel-type exercise, in which you form a pill of energy in the lower dantian Self Concentration Builds Harmony with the Universe After all that, here's my conclusion. Spring Forest looks to me to be a total system of Inner Alchemy, hopefully even more so once I get to the other manuals. My questions are more geared towards people that have practiced Spring Forest, but anyone is welcome to post your input. Here it goes. Why are all these really advanced exercises (formation of the pill in particular) in Level One??? Am I overcomplicating things here? Am I looking for connections that aren't really there? If this is a total method of Inner Alchemy, which I truly believe it is, why are these exercises arranged in this pattern, instead of the pattern listed in "Cultivating Stillness"? Should I not be going through a celibacy period to preserve Jing before I am forming the pill? So those are some of the questions I've been asking myself, and I'd like some input just to indulge my curiosity. Let me know what you think. And please keep in mind that my descriptions of both Inner Alchemy and Spring Forest have all been highly condensed and oversimplified. I also realize that there is a good deal left to discuss about proper use of the mind in inner practices. Sorry, but I don't think I can get into everything in one post. I did my best

I'm not sure if it's the energy of a thunderstorm that's regarded as chaotic, or if the situation is too chaotic for many practitioners to concentrate in. Too distracting and all that. I've always avoided doing it in any case.

Chunyi Lin advises against washing your hands or face too soon after practice for the same reason. That's from the Level 1 manual I believe. Zhang, I believe the Baolin Wu book also mentions not practicing outside during a period of atmospheric shift or strong winds. Rain would be an effect of an atmospheric shift. (However, I personally don't buy into the idea of not practicing during at atmospheric shift, since it is almost always shifting in some way. Nothing is every truly static. And where do you draw the line?) With that said, I still don't think it's a good thing to practice in strong wind or in rain or in thunderstorms. Wind and rain are draining, and thunderstorms are too chaotic.

Awesome job Sean! I can't thank you enough. Thanks to you and to Bruce for putting this together

My link Is this the Master Zhang that Chunyi Lin of SFQ learned from in Xichuan?

My question is, "How do your Qigong techniques fit within the scope of Taoist Internal Alchemical processes?" Not sure if someone has already posted something to that degree or not, but just in case here it is. Also, I would love to hear more information on the lineage of the Water Method before Liu Hung Chieh. Where did he learn it from, etc. Thanks for doing this Sean. This was a great idea. Long Yun

For those who've gone to one of Jenny Lamb's seminars or used her DVD, I was just wondering if there is a 100 days celibacy period like what I've heard of Kunlun. Is this part of the Spontaneous Adjustment (Yigong) system?

Hey what happened with this interview? It's been a couple of months and I just wanted to check in on the progress.

Thanks Mal! You're the man.

Mal, would you be so kind as to change mine as well? I made it long ago when I was reading a lot of Eva Wong books. She always talked about the Wu-Liu sect, but since I don't belong to that sect, I no longer feel like it is appropriate. Please change it to Long Yun. Thanks for your help.

I've been inquiring a bit as to how to begin taming the mind. As far as I know, this is what I need to do before even considering learning Internal Alchemy. So, I was wondering what methods you all have used or would recommend. Any help would be greatly appreciated, seriously And the method I've been considering is that mentioned in the Cleary translation of "Secret of the Golden Flower" That method consists of first listening to the soundlessness of subtle breathing. Then, by using awareness to seek the source of awareness. When the practitioner realizes that the source of awareness cannot be found, the mind will be pacified. When a thought arises, trace it back. When realization occurs again, sit in the subsequent stillness. When a thought arises again, pursue it back. Etc. Does this sound like a good method? I'd really appreciate any input. Thanks.

No, not really. From what I've seen, Spring Forest involves harmonizing Yin and Yang, and balancing the body. I think it's different from what I've heard about Mo Pai.

Thanks? I'm just trying to figure this stuff out so that I can start practicing the right methods. There are side paths you know... I'm doing the best with what I've got, and I thought that asking a community of cultivators might help. I'm not pretending anything, and I don't think results will just pop out of nowhere. I guess I chose the wrong words when I started this thread, since it has obviously sent the wrong message. Maybe you are trying to help, but your "harsh tone" just doesn't seem necessary to me. I'm not claiming that I've achieved anything, and I haven't "seen the buddha." I'm just looking for a little clarification.

This vapor is the Qi after the gathering and transformation of Jing into preheavenly Qi? Am I interpreting this correctly? Essentially, Alchemy is refining the mind and cultivating the vapor? This meditation is thus the preliminary work for Alchemy? But would that mean that there's a sort of deadline on when to move on to the next stage?

What about this? I really like this: (Bold is areas I don't feel I understand) [1] The method of observing stillness? Just stillness meditation or something specific? [2] I have no clue what any of this means [3] Coming and going of thought? Square (Earth) within the Circle (Heaven)? Huh??? I don't get the next sentence either. [4] Internal light being attention? Focusing on the breathing? I think that this method is shifting attention down into the Lower Dantian, while at the same time listening to the "soundlessness of breath." You breathe quiet enough that you can hear it into the LDT? Am I reading this correctly? Haha! This is almost the same meditation I was doing with Spring Forest Qigong. Mjjbecker has been right all along...

Wonderful explanation Ya Mu. I understand what you're saying and I can't believe I was totally overlooking this

Some killing is unavoidable. We do it every day, and it depends on how far you want to carry the "sentient life" argument. What about bacteria? Are they sentient? Our immune system naturally kills them all the time! Even if you're vegetarian, you're responsible for some proxy killing because things like worms and bug larvae and probably even some small mammals get tilled into the ground during plowing. And even sometimes, as in your case, we lose our tempers or get annoyed with a bug here and there. The important thing is that you said some prayers for it. Hopefully it was a good bug and will come back as something better If it makes you feel better, the Dalai Lama has admitted to killing mosquitos after three chances to stop biting him... Even the effective leader of Tibetan Buddhism isn't perfect.

After speaking a little with mjjbecker, I decided I'd like to revive this thread. I have nothing against Spring Forest. I have and really enjoyed the Level One manual. I tried it for a while and I really enjoyed it. But I'm not convinced that it's Alchemy, and I don't feel that I ever got a full answer on this thread. Can anyone, either proponents of Spring Forest or otherwise, spell it out for me? How does Spring Forest relate the the practice of Internal Alchemy (which consists of Jing/Qi/Shen, Kan and Li, Immortal Fetus, etc)? Specifically, what exercises relate to each level of Alchemy? (ie, what exercises gather Jing, what exercises transform it into Qi, what exercises gather Qi, what exercises transform it to Shen, etc) I am in no way dogging this practice. I think it's great. Just not sure if it's alchemy.

Concentrated effort being what, haha? And accepting whatever arises being the SOGF (Cleary)? Primates that we are...

And is this classic technique a beginning technique to pacify the mind, or is it a later, more advanced technique?

So, this technique, which I am summarizing based on some glances at Cleary's SOGF, sounds ok? -Lower the eyes -Establish a reference point -Tune the breathing (listen to it's soundlessness) -Seek the source of awareness (when a thought arises, pursue it: where is it, where does it come from, where does it go) This is supposed to pacify the mind, as noted in the Chan Buddhist fable included by Mr. Cleary, in which the master tells the student to bring him his mind so he can pacify it for him. The student returns saying, "After looking for my mind, I realize that it cannot be found." The teacher says, "I have pacified your mind for you." I don't think the Cleary SOGF goes beyond mind pacification. Any objections?

Well, the reason I ask is that I'm looking to pursue a stillness meditation for a while to tame my mind. I'm thinking the mind has to be tamed before practicing Internal Alchemy, and while reading the preview of "Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu" on amazon, I came across the passage mentioning only liberating the yin and not the yang spirit. So, would the meditation mentioned in Thomas Cleary's "Secret of the Golden Flower" be considered a correct method? I don't think that it refers to alchemy, as Cleary claims, but to a meditation process that leaves the mind tamed. The method involves looking inward toward the source of thought, in other words, actively searching for stillness, not forcing it. Stillness would be spontaneous, and since it's an active pursuit, it seems yang. Is the passage quoted by Taomeow stating that all Buddhists incorrectly practice quiet sitting, or that some who claim to be and are not Buddhists incorrectly practice it?

Sorry to bring this up after so long. I'm in the process of getting this text, but in the mean time, perhaps you could tell me if it happens to say anything about what the "incorrect methods of quiet sitting" are? I'd appreciate it.