Nikolai1

Because in the West Christians are having to live cheek by jowl with the secularists. The tension is everywhere and building. Ask any Christian.

They are a tribe - tribes can be targeted like any other group. And to their detractors, if they call themselves Christians than they are the target. The title renders them a homogenous group.

Really great reply Karl - thank you! So much of the value of Jung is the camaraderie he offers to the seeker. But I accept that ultimately its an individual struggle. You felt that Jung held you back, hence the antipathy. I appreciate Jung because his path was intellectual and I saw myself in him a lot. But he could never have been a truly inspirational teacher, he didn't have the spiritual force for himself and didn't want it. There's a famous anecdote about how Jung had the opportunity to meet Ramana Maharshi but stayed away. He didn't want to meet him, was happy to namecheck him in his books. Why not give a link to your book? You can PM me if you want?

I should say that Jung's Psychological Types are not at all central to his work. He wrote the book very early in his career, and for me it seems a stand alone contribution. And God knows what fools have grabbed hold of it since... I would recommend the Jung of Jungianism. The process of Individuation is the key concept. Try again and see if it speaks to you.

You mean you make actual models, like out of plasticine? Oh! I took model to be a more virtual thing, like an idea.

The frustrating thing here Karl is it seems you won't be able to say anything about Jung other than that you don't like it. Can you try and justify your position a bit more?

Jung considered Man to be essentially spiritual in his true nature. At no point in history has that been a view easy to understand. He will always be a strange outsider, but to those who 'get' him he will be tremendously important.

I believe I'm right in saying that a huge portions of his letters are still not in the public domain. For some reason his family do not want them published. If the red book got published then I cannot imagine what might be in the letters!

Is future modelling the same as creative visualisation and the law of attraction?

Is there any thinkers who do inspire you Karl?

More emptiness! But actually I'm sympathetic to what you did at the barbecue. People do need to be taught.

Hi Karl I'm simply describing the phenomenology of experience, as faithfully as I can. Nothing more.

I'd love it if you could elaborate on this? Thanks

All your words are the words of one stuck in emptiness. Yes, there is something fake about the barbeque. But the fun others have is genuinely felt. You need to hold both in view and just go with the flow. Discerning the flow is discerning the ethical. The ethical is not being a killjoy at berbecues.

The world changes in appearance. What appeared everyday and mundane starts to take on a beauty that feels transcendent to behold. In my experience it started with reflective things, particularly water. This is what makes it feel like there is more light available...because refelctive things become more reflective. The image in the water is the same as the object relfected. Light and shade become more starkly contrasted. The bark of the tree becomes astonishing in its deep exaggerated texture.

Hi Karl, If by this you mean all the theologies, doctrines, philosophies that go alongside the 'spiritual' then I completely agree. One of the most unfortunate delusions is that science and theology are different epistemological enterprises. It creates the delusion that some methods approach reality better than others. But spiritual experience itself is different because it feels different to our normal everyday experiene. Being an individual in time and space and being a pure transcendent self do feel different.

Karl, I agree that Jung is the father of New Age religion. And I don't think his offspring are all bad. I always think synchronicity is a good place to access Jung. It's something we've all experienced and the uncanniness requires some kind of explanation.

Jung paved the way for so much of what is called modern religion. His essential insight is that the material world and the mental world are a seamless whole. He was the most important religious thinker in the 20th century, and he understood that all human suffering is alienation from the divine.

I like this description TI, but I also think that the landscape you describe starts to become less superimposed over mundane reality and actually starts to suffuse it with its light. The white light you speak of is so obviously illuminating everything...the waves on the lake, the light in people's eyes, the gorgeous fissures in the bark of the tree. When we gradually find the peace and love within, the reality without matches it. Reality becomes a kind of symbolic representation of he gorgeousness inside.

Hi Bindi, This literally made me sad to read it! Your whole day is interpersed with moments where the inner and the outer have become one. It is only thought that separates the inner and outer. Without thought we are simply being, without any separation. So don't say this about yourself! What may need to happen is that the beautiful joy of the Kingdom needs to be morely deeply felt so that you actually notice when you are there. Or, more precisely the joy needs to deepen, because whether you realise it or not you are aways subtly sensing the KIngdom. When life without thought of separation is fully recognised as more pleasurable and meaningful then life with thought then you are on the fast track. What is the pleasure of the thoughtless life? Well, it is felt primarily. It is relaxing and refreshing like a glass of wine or a warm bubble bath. And because we know they are always at hand we are filled with confidence and trust in the world and we are free to feel positively towards it all. We really start to adore it. So in Christian parlance this is what Paul taught. We, as walking, talking, living beings have already, in a sense, died, been judged and have been entirely wiped clean of all our sins. We are free to continue with our lives safe in the knowledge that we have been saved. When we have no more doubts or fears weighing us down we can really live our life and our love for life is the natural consequence, and of course gratitude to Jesus for teaching us the good news about our potential. But anyway, please don't say that you haven't yet entered the Kingdom. The very thought bars the way!

Thanks spotless. - I'm going to enjoy this!

Hi Bindi, Yes me too!, but of course there were no Christians for Jesus to speak to...just people whose spiritual needs weren't being satisfied by the Judaism of the day. Now, to be a Christian IS believing that the Kingdom is only for Christians and that Jesus speaks only to his professed followers. If you are able to hold such a belief, it is of great spiritual power for you. The downside is that it doesn't bring peace and understanding between different religions. If this Christianity doesn't satisfy you then you are in the same position as those who originally heard Jesus's words.

Excellent idea!! Can you give us regular updates?

This isn't a third view. The returning of Christ IS the time when the inner and outer become one. There is only one outcome being discussed here. When we enter the Kingdom we realise our identity with Christ. Our entering, and Christ's returning are the same event.

The word 'inside' is a metaphor. The KIngdom is that place from where things on the inside and things on the outside are both seen. When you reach the Kingdom you understand that inner and outer are the same thing. Why might the word 'inner' be used as a metaphor? Because wherever we go, whatever we do, we are in the Kingdom. We carry it with us, like our vital organs. Inside is a good metaphor for this reason. But so is the Kingdom as outside also a good metaphor. Wherever we look we can see the Kingdom. The beauty and the bliss of the Kingdom is everywhere in creation. We are never not seeing it and feeling it.