Master Logray

There are differences at first. But they wane off eventually, as perceive by many people.

The hardware/software metaphor is actually not easily used. Software is not only the programs that we change or update. Software can be hardware based. The CPU has lots of codes which are programs in a sense. So is it hardware or software? Programs can be changed? The operating system cannot be changed easily. It is like the set up or character of a person, that is quite independent from what the mind thinks, and from the effect of the physical body.

It could be due to those selection bias. The one who teaches would mostly be those smarter, of sufficiently sociable, have some capabilities in organizing and administration. We can't see those don't teach or have one or two disciples just to keep the lineage survive. At one time, the China Taoist association sent a team to look for these people. They found a Taoist nun who was very old but had a high Neidan level. But she acted like a teenage girl. She was naive and didn't know what is going on in the world, even for simple things. When the conversation topic is related to Neidan, she could talk for an hour. If the topic is other things, she just wandered off. This type of people is seldomly noticed by others, let alone engage in teaching. I know another who even has a "certificate" issued by temple in the old China. He was mainly taught by his father and don't have any student. His main preoccupation is to prepare medicine oil and buying vegetable. When I met him, he was 70 but look like 50. 'Crazy' ones are not uncommon, even in forums.

You are right that eastern traditions are quite master/apprentice way of teaching and it is usually by oral tradition. There are 2 reasons behind this phenomenon, other than the need to keep in secrecy for a variety of considerations. The first is many masters, great achievers in Taoist Neidan were not well educated nor full of wisdom as in movies and TVs. Many were simply illiterate or could barely write their own names. In fact these people are the ones with best powers and experience as they have nothing on their mind. It was why apprentices were required to recite everything. They didn't have to understand most of them. They will understand when the time is ripe. The ones who wrote books or knew everything in different cultivation, knew every philosophy, well versed in Buddhism or Tibetans or Yi Jing, able to explain everything, appearing in discussions, able to earn the trust and admiration of fellow cultivators, very often were the 2nd tiers. A great master have said. One of his students was this type and able to explain things better than himself. But this student's progress was not proportional to his knowledge. It is often said that, with the right oral secret codes, one doesn't have to read the many sacred Dan books, or drown in the maze of obscurities. With the secret codes, those books are used for verification of the practices as the one knows what are inside of these teachings, what are incorrectly said, what are missing. The second reason is that, in order to progress in Neidan, some practitioners are better positioned. Those who are dumb, muddle, single minded, obedient, with perseverance are usually the best students. They have a clear mind, not distracted by desires and too much thinking (whether positive or negative thinkings, whether useful or daydreaming). Those with a quick and sharp mind, able to multitasks, handling difficult situations on a daily basis, would understand the treatises better. But they are inherently weaker in the pursuit.

I come across this organisation - https://wu-dang-pai.de This one has Kung Fu, Qigong, meditation, philosophy, ceremonies, feng shui, healing ..... even free course. It seems quite complete, something for everyone. And they are tri-lingual in German, English and Chinese. Take a look.

Even real monks can be troublesome. An elder of the most prominent Buddhist temple, also the head of Buddhist association in the next city , was found to be with another senior nun in Hawaii. Both stay in the house which is property of the temple there. And the nun even wear a bikini and had dinner in luxury hotel.

Is visualization a tool in meditation? I would say it depends on the end goal and depends on the stages. If the goal is more towards to "emptiness" (or meditation traditionally means), visualization can only be used in the initial stage. Because it still activates the conscious mind. If the goal is related to other things like magic, healing... Then visualization is rather useful or even essential.

Whatever these things are, they are at least products. They are sold over the centuries and many people survive by that.

Taoism is a minimalist belief system. You don't do this, don't do that, or do less. When you are not doing much, but your powers remain the same, you are having more power in relation to all tasks.

From 1 March, 2022, 5 China departments ( Religious Affairs Bureau, Internet Information Office, Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, Ministry of Public Security, Ministry of National Security) jointly promulgated a new law - Internet Religious Information Management Methods. Article 6 Provide the public with religious teachings and regulations, religious knowledge, and religious information in the form of text, pictures, audio and video, etc., through Internet sites, applications, forums, blogs, microblogs, public accounts, instant messaging tools, and live webcasts. The service of information such as cultural and religious activities shall obtain an Internet religious information service license and meet the following conditions: (1) The applicant is a legal person organization or an unincorporated organization legally established within the territory of the People's Republic of China, and its legal representative or principal person in charge is a mainland resident with Chinese nationality; (2) Have information review personnel who are familiar with national religious policies and regulations and relevant religious knowledge; (3) Have a sound Internet religious information service management system; (4) Having a sound information security management system and safe and controllable technical guarantee measures; (5) Having venues, facilities and funds that match the services; (6) The applicant and its legal representative or main person in charge have no criminal records or violations of relevant state regulations on religious affairs management in the past three years. Overseas organizations or individuals and their organizations established within the territory shall not engage in Internet religious information services within the territory. Article 14 Internet religious information must not contain the following content: (1) Using religion to instigate subversion of state power, oppose the leadership of the Communist Party of China, undermine the socialist system, national unity, national unity, and social stability, and promote extremism, terrorism, ethnic separatism, and religious fanaticism; (2) Using religion to obstruct the implementation of national judicial, education, marriage, social management and other systems; (3) Propagating cults and feudal superstitions by using religion, or using religion to damage the health of citizens, defrauding or coercing to obtain property; (4) Violating the principle of independence and self-management of religions in our country; (5) Destroying the harmonious coexistence between different religions, within the same religion, and between citizens who believe in religion and citizens who do not believe in religion; (6) Discriminating against or insulting citizens who believe in religion or citizens who do not believe in religion, and harming the lawful rights and interests of citizens who believe in religion or citizens who do not believe in religion; (7) engaging in illegal religious activities or providing convenience for illegal religious activities; (8) Inducing minors to believe in religion, or organizing or forcing minors to participate in religious activities; (9) Carrying out commercial propaganda in the name of religion, distributing and distributing religious articles, religious internal information publications and illegal publications; (10) Impersonating religious personnel to carry out activities; (11) Other content prohibited by relevant laws, administrative regulations and state regulations. Article 17 `Except for the circumstances specified in Articles 15 and 16 of these Measures, no organization or individual may upload religion on the Internet, carry out religious education and training, publish sermons, or repost or link related content. Religious activities must not be organized on the Internet, and religious ceremonies such as worshiping Buddha, burning incense, receiving precepts, chanting, worship, mass, and baptism must not be broadcast live or recorded in text, pictures, audio and video, etc. Article 18: No organization or individual may establish a religious organization, set up a religious school or place for religious activities, or develop believers on the Internet. Article 19: No organization or individual may solicit donations in the name of religion on the Internet. Since this forum has many spiritualists, various religious members who may travel to China. And there is a special provision on overseas organizations or persons, and mentioned forums. Knowing the above would keep you safe from infringing Chinese law.

Then your definition of spiritual has nothing to do with spirits or the worlds of spirits? Isn't that similar to ethics, morality?

If you think carefully, there are so many people working hard to become a ghost, suicide, indulgence in alcohol, drugs, cigarette, bad food, dangerous games, illegal activities, over-working.... Ghost immortal's definition is like a consolation prize for those cannot reach a heavenly immortal status. But think deeper, those human and earthly immortals, despite having very long life, eventually die. So they become ghost immortal, unless they reincarnate or take over another body. Since heavenly immortal would be extremely rare, it is logical to deduct almost all immortals are ghost immortals.

Jade emperor is only a tier 2, 1st one in the 2nd row. There should be another image but cannot upload due to error -200 or -400. Anyone knows what happened?

This should be a very famous event. But there is nothing in Google. The Taoist world seems don't have record of this major event? While a Du Xin Lin (possibly same name 杜信齡) was mentioned in White Cloud Temple's history. In 1946, a group of Taoists burned the in-charge and another person to death as these 2 were alleged to be corrupt, selling temple properties, closed down 2 free schools and sneaked prostitutes into the temple via a secret passage. Du Xin Lin, being a main culprit, was sentenced to life imprisonment. But communist took over few years later. Don't know what happened to him. So is this the same person mentioned in the article?

There are 2 different things. MetaDao's list of type of immortals is based on a Neidan perspective. They are levels of beings that human can possibly be transformed into. 8 Immortals/Jade emperor and many others belong to Chinese religion/culture/folklore/legends/tales. There are plenty of books, even English ones, on Chinese mythology. Many of these beings, especially the powerful ones, are born or come from nowhere.

Great French translated names! These days..... In China they employ a lot of top athletics to teach Taichi and similar stuff, in these bigger, wider, acrobatic moves. They are beautiful but no use in combat, nor health. In fact many suffer from long term problems after learning from these teachers.

Well I forgot the Kwa. But is it important? It is hard to explain by words. This kind of question is hard to answer. Don't know the person's age, sex, built, purpose, body background.... So there are options for beginners. To get strength and power, top balance, unable dislodge by others. e.g. Jacky Chan style Wuji or Wan Yuen Jong Click to choose files Modern style Old age style (posture not correct) There are many other styles too.

You click on your own link. In line 2 and 3 of the search results, there is a man with bread, dark shirt, greenish pants in 2 photos, one standing and one sitting. This is the idea. Damo's photos may be more appropriate for martial arts based Neigong. These days people don't bend the knees so much. Most do it as in his standing photo. It is more than sufficient for health or internal developments. Too much bending would hurt the knees and other problems if you are not very young. Wuji pose is simply a do-nothing pose. There are more materials elsewhere on the internet. You can compare and contrast. The difference would be mainly on the hands.

The term Neigong was only coined not very long time ago. Agree things can be used for different purposes, like health, internal development, spiritual... which eventually obscure their original purpose. Many people in the west just want to apply their spirituality world view on Taoism. It doesn't work because this aspect is handled very differently. You see if I tell people I am spiritual, the most common reactions would be, - you are a relentless Christian - you are from a cult - you should be locked up in psychiatric facilities Neidan, if think carefully, is anti-spiritual. It is a system to prolong life indefinitely, thereby delaying the coming of the spiritual world for the person. In practical terms, most of the Neidanists are older people. They are fast becoming spirit themselves, so why the fuss to explore spirituality. And Neidan don't represent Taoism. Half of the Taoists are ZhengYi. They deal with actual spirits everyday in communication, divination, exorcists, offerings. When they are practically roaming the spirits world, spirituality looks pale by comparison. I think those interested in spirituality should go for Buddhism. It is a richer soil for development.

There is a movie called Ip Man, which is about a big Wing Chun Boxing master, played by Donnie Yen. Ip Man was the teacher of Bruce Lee. In that movie, Ip Man rented a roof to be his boxing gym. In that period, he apparently spent all his time worrying about new students. If a teacher is more established in his "business", I think he would not be so eager for new students, or even start to be being choosy. Yes, the students need to be able to follow the culture of that place or that school. Otherwise he may not be imparted with more important skills. Students are not treated equally. I don't consider Neigong or Qigong spiritual. It is a general viewpoint they are skills only. Anyone can teach these, atheists, scientists, down to earth people.... Neigong is especially non-spiritual. It is an adjunct of external martial arts (Internal Kung Fu). Ethical conduct - of course it is important. Teachers could be too eager to teach young ladies, borrow money from students, associated with mafia, selling insurance, asking for personal favours..... not only having keen interest in money is a problem.

I think the discussions has been mixing up 2 types of teachers. One type is traditional. Students need to attend a ceremony, kneel or fall down in front of the master to be accepted as a student. There is deep and long term relationship. Fees and ways of payment vary greatly. It is natural for students take into account the master's private conduct or aspirations. Freeform and shadow_self talked about this type. While the 2nd type is merely offering a course for a fixed amount. It includes most Qigong and Neigong courses and all online teachings. These teachers are no different from millions of any other courses. A student should concern himself with how the transaction is conducted according to legal and proper business norms. The personal side of the teacher is generally none of the students' concern. Damo clearly belongs to this type. If he is teaching in a park, would a prospective student approach him and asks how he is spending his money? donating to any orphanage lately ?

First question: Yes. For elementary stage. Second question: Watch his students.

黃元吉？ I think that was more like a seminar (講座) ？ By the way, how is the situation in Taiwan now, how do people find teachers for Neidan?

I think you are not aware of many things - not secret teachings but normal things in reality, that makes you clashes with many people. Do you know China have 22 Chinese Medicine Universities that offer English curriculum. Three Hong Kong universities have School of Chinese Medicine. These doctors are fully licensed practitioners. China's Chinese medicine doctors programmes is a double degree. The graduates also got a western medicine doctor license. Of course these are not free. But is it good enough? open enough? Neidan education does come in free in bit and pieces here and there. But the problem is not free or not. It is because there is no pure Neidan education by itself. Qigong/Neigong/Inner martial arts are though plentiful or often pretend to be Neidan, or only offer it in the very "senior" stages. Historically Neidan are disseminated in an apprentice mode than class mode. It affects its secrecy (among many other factors) and charging mechanism. There is a saying the "free things" are the most expensive in the end. Even in the old days, some teachers offer free teaching to students with great potential, or even pay for their livelihood. But do modern young man like yourself wants to have another father, which you are obligated to take care of him until his death? do you want to pay regularly without receiving useful teaching for years? do you want to live with him under one roof for many many years? do you want to take care of all the household chores? do you want to limit your life circle to only a few fellow disciples? It sounds a bit like slavery nowadays. Star Wars would be a good example. Anakin was an apprentice of Obi-wan Kenobi. Obi-wan as a master, is not merely a teacher, or his excellency in the Force that makes him received a "Master" title. He is simply the master of Anakin, who is a servant in a sense. The Sith side has some relevance to real life too. One master one disciple. It is what frequently happens. Anyhow I don't know if Anakin paid any tuition fee or not. But he did pay dearly for that education in the end. Lastly I don't view Neidan as spiritual. It is more a life science or technique to me.

I agree there is a lack of discussion on the actual methods in this forum as @mcoolio says. There are secrets that we cannot disclose on a forum or even in private message, due to many reasons. But many of the Qigong, Neigong are not that secretive. They are open to everybody who buy or borrow a book, or pay a small fee to join a class. Those Zhan Zhuang, Eight silk brocades, YiJinJing are quite available. Naturally there are many specific questions to be asked. But no one is asking.