Master Logray

My teacher said, prolonged meditation itself will change a person's character to be more mild, more understanding, more peaceful. May be he is not entirely correct.

WLP stands a lot? They are using standing as the base? not sitting? Standing cannot go deep enough and while it is useful to kick start as you say.

How so? Any more info?

Zen doesn't improve the body, so are some Taoist practices in the early stage. When your body ages, maintain a full lotus could be giving harmful effects. Not only the knee, but the lower back too. In Taoist training, the person will easily snap into place when the Chi comes. The problem is the long period before getting the real Chi. Damages could have been done. For older people especially who starts middle aged, it is better to take it easy, or even easier along the way. Anyhow your objective is on the mind, why struggle in pain for decades.

It doesn't matter if doing something has a zero chance of success, as long as it is not a all or nothing type. If one trains to be the richest man on earth, then even a 1/10000 success is quite a big sum of money. A 10% success rate will make most people envy.

Modern world, it is unavoidable. The initial step of concentrating on LDT has been a great hurdle for many people.

The common explanation is, when the LDT is full, it starts to flow down the channel and start orbiting on its own. Most teachers would tell you that. It is certainly true. But then why MCO is regarded as Yau Wei Gong (Doing Something) instead of Wu Wei Gong? If Chi can do everything by itself, safe and sound and smooth? Because the person has to concentrate on the LDT to gather and build up Chi, start the firing trigger, keep the Chi running along the proper channel (actually it is a trunk road with many junctions), don't omit sections (common), stopping in the journey (the 3 passes, the bathing points), determine when to go again or start its downward journey, adjust the speed etc. There is not much Wu Wei left, at most just don't force things. Given the involvement of the conscious mind, WuLiu MCO can hardly even be classified as meditation when this term generally refers stilling the mind and doing as little as possible. It is more similar to Qigong or even Hatha Yoga where a lot of interventions are needed.

There is a practice where the Chi is moving between LDT and MDT, similar to OP's thinking. It seems to be safer too. But I don't know how this practice fit in the grand scheme of Neidan.

I think the term "master" implies a certain preaching/teaching/writing. A solo cultivator (I don't mean anyone we know) does not count. Someone who knows the truth of the universe, unless he preaches/teach/write, he is a nobody (again no name implied) if he keeps everything to himself.

Yes, master = philosopher + special powers. If Jesus never demonstrated anything special, would Christianity even exist with his teachings alone?

I think so. A fake master is different from a fallen master.

Neigong and Qigong are "recent" terms. Neigong appeared in 1932, while Qigong was 1953 only. It is very interesting the term Neigong was coined by one of the greatest novelist in China, the Owner of the Returning Pearl Villa. He wrote at least 40 millions words from 1930 to 1960. His most famous novels were about Swords Immortals, with significant descriptions of Taoist/Buddhist/Evil cultivation practices. It is actually very good for cultivators to read his books apart from entertainment value. This term was further made popular by another Kung Fu novelist Jin Rong. He was the most famous one and his books are translated in different languages. Neigong is generally defined to be a supplementary strengthening system for external martial arts. Buddhist Shaolin boxing is regarded as External Martial Arts and Taoist Kung Fu as internal. As to Qigong, it was first used in 1953 in a Chi Kung Health Restoration institute. This term was then used by the government for all related activities. During those period, it was quite restrictively conceived as breathing exercises and exercises with managed breathing. It was only later when mind aspects are included. Qigong sometimes are defined to include Yoga, meditation, chanting, some Tibetan practices, Neidan etc. So it is quite generic that everything is Qigong. When someone asks me what do I exercise, it is simple to say QG which everyone thinks they understand. Nowadays people define both according to their own understandings or marketing considerations. Neigong still has a martial bias. But in most cases, Neigong can be treated same as Qigong as they are very similar in practice and frequently having the same exercises.

I remember reading about ghost/alien/fairy... and how to know if they are not dreams or hallucinations but sentient. You try to be interactive with them, ask them questions like about the news - may be politics, arithmetic, street names, how machines work and so on. If they can give you genuine answers - run.

I would say those traditions that talk only is more susceptible to having charlatans. It includes most like Hindu, Buddhist, Christianity, Islam. Their objectives are unclear e.g. enlightenment, faith; and having no measurable yardsticks. While Tibetan, Taoist alchemy and magical, Western magical, Hatha Yoga all involve some physical doings and expect results that are measurable and obtainable within a reasonable time frame. Let say you met a Yoga master who teaches you to bend, but you cannot do it. So this tradition is no use to you. If what you get is pain after pain, then it must be harmful. A spell not effective is known in a short time. For these traditions, it is not likely to have a totally fake master, but rather how good/bad are they. These are not free from charlatans, but it is easier to spot them and handle properly.

I have the impression that aside from a small minority of younger "spirituality loving people", the majority are so old that sex is no longer a big issue?

I thought that you refer to @Shadow_self.

We would better restrict definition meditation to higher end more elaborate systems. Meditation is a form of idleness or silence which all humanity observes. Repeated movements with a certain ways of breathing is again too simple to be developed everywhere over the ages. Most of the people pray and chant and sing in different religions. These are para-meditation practices. Even marathon runners get into trance. But we should not call them meditation as the major objective is not meditation itself. The desert people should have a better grasp as they had nothing to do in a desert and looking at the clear sky in the evenings - at least in the old days. But interestingly the areas around Himalayas seem to have a better touch and were able to organize these activities into complicated and vast systems. I only recently discover Zikr. It is so great.

If most of the Arabs, Persia, Muslim India have very limited meditational activities. Then South East Asia's meditation practices would be indigenous or imported from India/China/Tibet?

Area / location comes first. Muslim arises from desert people. They sure value connecting to others. In Asia where it is historically packed more than sardines, people value free space and less "connections". It is why meditation has been phenomenonal from India to Japan.

Dao De Jing Chapter 81 (the last chapter), ....善者不辯，辯者不善。知者不博，博者不知。 is quite applicable to this discussion. The English translation on Google. .... Good men do not argue. Those who argue are not good. Those who know are not learned. The learned do not know. This translation seems a bit off to me. My impression is that it means those know what is going on do not want to argue; those arguing don't know what is going on. Those who understands the Tao is not having a wide knowledge; those having a wide knowledge may not know the Tao (or other subjects). So I suppose someone fully absorbs this philosophy would refrain from arguing in forums. This is one of the reasons why there are so few discussion on Taoism, not only here. In real life, Taoist temples don't have sermons, regular or irregular. Priests don't talk to the masses like Abrahamic religions or even Buddhists. Back to religion, how do people keep life philosophy, divine teaching, cosmology, mystical lore, magical knowledge, ethics in tact for the future generations? There is no better ways than religion. The initial seed could have come from the divine or knowledge from commoner like Lao Zhi, it is the religion that merges all related into a system, and work it out in the real world, finally institutionalize it. Then Taoist religion is somewhat the son (or nephew) of Taoist Philosophy. The demarcation of philosophy and religion is for better understanding. But they are intrinsically linked. When a religion is going overseas, it is quite natural for the recipients to take the easier part - philosophy only. Who would want to remember those deities names in Indian or in Egyptian languages. Greek gods names are already long enough. And it won't offend their own religions if only philosophy is mentioned. Some places are quite sensitive too. Preaching can result in death penalty. So far I only saw a post about Rabbit God in this forum. It is a rare occurrence.

This debate was hundreds of years. Anyway, from the viewpoint of another lazy person, the debate is more for academic, or for tea house, or for forum. The 2 groupings do not imply 2 different groups of people. A Taoist priest can be well versed with YiJing and DDJ. A Taoist philosopher most likely goes to the same temples and worship the similar gods with similar rites. Cultivators very often are not well educated or even illiterate to read DDJ (they got periodic teachings by mouth) and only go to temple once a year.

So one of the most prominent temple and the Hong Kong Taoist Association are just wrong.

The Daoist Encyclopedia FYSK Daoist Culture Centre Database Similarities and differences between religious and philosophical Daoism Jump to navigation Jump to search Religious Daoism ( 道教 Daojiao) is the indigenous religion of China, which holds longevity and immortality as its highest object of faith. It advocates attaining Longevity ( 長生 Changsheng) and Immortality ( 成仙 Chengxian) through a process of Nourishing Life ( 養生 Yangsheng), Cultivation and Refinement ( 修煉 Xiulian), and the practise of virtuous conduct, in order to escape death and reach eternity. Philosophical Daoism ( 道家 Daojia) is a current in the history of Chinese philosophy, while religious Daoism is a religion. However, the two are intimately related. The core concept of Daoist thought, `Dao'( 道 Dao), was inherited and transformed by Daoist religion, while Laozi, the founder of Daoist philosophy, was incorporated into religious Daoism as the `Supreme Venerable Sovereign' ( 太上老君 Taishang Laojun) divinity. The ''Book of Dao and its Virtue'' ( 道德經 Daodejing) and the Book of Master Zhuang ( 莊子 Zhuangzi), classics of Daoist philosophy, became `Perfect Scriptures' ( 真經 Zhenjing) of religious Daoism. The inheritance and transformation of elements of Daoist philosophy by Daoist religion shows both the links between the two as well as the differences between them. We can say that the value orientations of religious and philosophical Daoism are fundamentally different According to later scholars, the development of Daoist philosophy can be divided into three stages: Lao-Zhuang Daoist philosophy ( 老莊道家 Laozhuang Daojia) of the pre-Qin era; Huang-Lao Daoism ( 黃老道 Huanglaodao) of the Qin and Han dynasties; and the 'Science of Mysteries' ( 玄學 Xuanxue) Daoist philosophy of the Wei and Jin dynasties. After the Wei and Jin, `Philosophical Daoism' became a thing of the past, as Daoist philosophy came to be completely replaced by Daoist religion. Therefore, after the Jin dynasty, references to the `Daoist School' ( 道家 Daojia)actually refer to the Daoist religion, when not specifically designating the philosophical Daoism of the pre-Qin, Qin, Han, Wei or Jin dynasties. We can thus say that after the Jin, religious Daoism took the place of Daoist philosophy in terms of social role and function. According to the Guide to Chinese Thought by the American Prof. T. Bishop, `there is no reason to see Daoist religion as a product of the degeneration and corruption of a pure Daoist philosophy. The relationship between the two should be seen in a different light. The ideological system of the Daoist religion includes many aspects lacking in Daoist philosophy, which are of utmost importance to peoples' practical life: for example, Daoist philosophy appeals to logic and the spirit, while Daoist religion appeals to peoples' emotions, feelings and interests. Religious Daoism makes full use of peoples' sense of fear and mystery, which are ignored by philosphical Daoism." When looking at the differences between religious and philosophical Daoism, we can see that although the two are mutually complementary, Daoist religion is more significant to the practical lives of common people. In order to understand Daoism, it is necessary to understand the clear difference between religious and philosophical Daoism, as well as their intimate relationship.

道家 & 道教

There were a few people who "developed" grounding, walking on grass... in recent weeks. These are Taoist "innovations" too.