Stosh

Im not qualified to make much of a statement about folks who want to kill themselves,,, but I will anyway. Ive wondered if theyre not yearning for the better situation than they can have, rather than acting out some values plan. And Im thinking that folks emotions relate to internalized values more so than what they conciously juggle. just as ,We bypass the calculator doing two plus two. Our minds are largely a black box, sentiments well up, and while we can sometimes rationalize why, the scales are really in the back room. I think the altruism of heros is like that, a summation done ,and handed up from below.Whether it amounts still ,to self service is debateable, but what isnt, is that people, despite anything they may cerebrally conclude, do sometimes sacrifice,,even their lives for people they dont even know. I wouldnt put heroism beyond you either, because until severely tested, ya never would know. But even on the daily scene, you seem ready to sacrifice your time and consideration for people like me, who you dont really know. Same for dusty, whatever he may think ,or even Imsiz biri , when push meets shove,,, ya dunno.

Groupings like 2 plus two being four are also imaginary constructs, ,, why then pick this as being obvious?

The pilot who values his own life highest , may choose himself first and foremost, when its him over me, the fraudulent contractor certainly values himself more highly, same for the rapist. Thats why no one else considers these guys heroic. Deceit and force just arent the determining factors whether one is depriving another,, they are loopholes in the chain of justification you are using ,,to allow yourself to feel your actions dont have the ramifications of someone deemed "bad". Its the bestowal of importance on others which is considered as loving or heroic, or even just humane since intrinsically they do not have importance. ...other folks may not agree with me on this next part, since it is a bit difficult to let go of certain ideas ,,but, treating all men as straw dogs, speaks to this. Flesh and bone are like straw, ephemeral ,cheap , weak etc. The celebrations treat the form with love respect, honor, joy, ..its the people that imbue any value that the dog has. ...but its just straw. So to treat men as straw dogs is not disrespect, but honor with the very highest respect their humanity , with deepest sincerity, not make a show of honor for the meat.

Im not so sure, ...I love Karl,, in a rough and tumble manly sort of way, It just doesnt seem like he feels beaten yet.

Karl, I disagree that I am setting up a staw man argument. Im merely pointing to the straw nature of your morality argument .You appear to be playing both sides of the court. Since when did Me First become the standard of heroism? And Me Second ,become the standard of villainy? In this finite world your pursuit for yourself very often is the loss to someone or something else. You drive a car , that requires roads, you contribute to traffic and deprive.. buffalo.,,whatever. of space. There is no neutrality. Once you assume your morals have a greater standing beyond just being your opinion, you set yourself as being better and someone else as worse. Fan of mankind, isnt silly, its just a loose phrase , you got the general idea, so what silliness could it exhibit?

I cant tell, are you the fan of mankind? or a detractor.

So be it. BUT reasoned thought can just as easily tell me to kill others and take for myself alone or not to.Being convinced that another is wrong or unfit, or bad, defines opponents. And so believing in absolute morality that exists as a static fact, sets armies against one another. Or removes all pretense of constraint. If we made a small mess, an oil spill, and declared this to be our moral right, then no further judgement can override making a giant mess. Its the end of negotiation and introspection to have these absolutes... IMO

Heck! Maybe only in the vastness of space will we realize we are pooping on our own lawn, and the only nice spots are where we are not. There are some creatures which are adapted to expand to areas of disturbance and change, they dont exist where the forest is mature. Or for whom it is untenable to remain in place, and they migrate. In far antiquity, I think this was true for mankind, to be able to roam again, to experiment and adapt to other worlds, may bring us back to our own roots rather than squashed out of shape by our own civilizations constraint.

It seems there might be middle ground between those two factions. Like it or not , we too are in the human club, though we often arent all that crazy about our collective actions. We have these values , that things are good ,or bad, that humans should have rights, or dont ,that we have families and enemies that we could be plaguelike or rightful citizens.. etc. But for humans to be plaguelike , is just a judgement on our collective behavior ,every bit as contrived , as the approval of human expansion into the galaxy. Taking away moral judgement means there is no good or bad to be done. Even if we blew up the planet. It couldnt be said to be Bad or Good as fact. Though undoubtedly WE of all creatures, would say that it, from our view, was really pretty bad. Lets hope we, our descendants, collectively get our act together before swarming out into space.

Perfect analogy.

Dustybeijing, Have you heard the Pink Floyd song ,wish you were here? We humans dont always know what we are choosing or doing, no matter how obvious it may seem later or from a wiser perspective. Offer someone in a jungle medicine, shoes, tobacco... whatever,,, and they gravitate to it. Like a fish not knowing the cleaner water they swim in. And so , the stesses of our own ways burn us up, even as we choose them.

The novelty of the big neocortex, gives em a footing. That flexible learning can dominate evolutionary impulse, makes a solid claim. That neanderthal had an even bigger brain per sq foot skin surface area, should be humbling. In some ways then, its possible that the peak of evolution has passed. The neanderthals may have been far wiser happier more sane, and H. sapiens represents mind run amok. Your idea , even if shared, that mankind was once more elevated in ways, may be fairly stated. The argument that there are other things by which one could judge evolutionary superiority is sound too. But its my opinion, that such judgements are self serving or self abasing, nothing more . Suns still burn , galaxies collide ,and the most we can claim for greatness is that we saw it.

It could, Yes, ..if the universe cared and had intent , ,but Id say It certainly doesnt look that way to me. SETI is pretty limited ,lame on the scale of universes really, so if intelligence ,which we believe is at least potentially possible, is allowed,, then maybe it will evolve somewhere.

Then I guess you fall in with the "un-moved mover" group. That theres some force or intent behind this all. Im closer to the " turtles all the way down" group. .that there is no intent , no final arbiter. ...What makes you think you should remember the OoM any more than your parents honeymoon ?

Im not big fan of staying on topic, things do tend to return to the origin eventually, but I dont see the connection yet, would it be detrimental tedious to reveal it?

Thats really an excellent post there buddy, the human condition, in a nutshell. The Origin of Mankind.Really really concise. I wish I thought of that.

Any of the threads could be interesting, and all of them will end , and other ones will spring up. I dont see the train wreck , thats an exaggeration. If theres enthusiasm to keep going , if someone really has a burning desire to learn the origin of mankind,, they can walk right past the pothole, just like they walk right past answers already provided. You know this is true ,without me saying it.

Starting to make sense now, quechua,, a language family shared by several ethnic groups in that region, including Inca. These women have been targeted forced , tricked, into tubal ligation surgeries , as an economic measure ,,especially in rural areas ,,over 200 000 ! of them. Wow thats a hideous abuse of a people..and this is recent! I dont watch the news.. but I wonder if I would have heard more than a whisper about it, if I did.

Aggg ,fun game though. Lots of tricky elements. Pan amerindianist? Possibly moscow 2013? Couldnt find much bio in English to explain the garb or the dreamcatcher album with the husky dog.

Theres a lot of distortion, look at the buildings! but looks like man hands build And face to me. On the other site they said the long style lower garment is generally for the ladies but its not daily wear so ... what else is there to go on? I thought about fixing the photo,, but its not mine to fix. Sneakers? looks like theyre sewn ,,fur hat, do they wear that in UK? I thought the pink bag emblem said MK, and might be from a duty free and to have that might indicate she picked it up in transit ,,but it does certainly look like theres more stuff by the board. dunno now,I think Lois is russian his relative in alaska for a Viking cruise?

I find it interesting that on , Forum on Chemical XuMuK.ru, they arent looking at his dress much at all and are trying to determine by physiognomy.

Oh that IS a flute? I thought it was the center section of the breastplate, where the 'threads' were broken. And he threw the stuff on haphazardly to show it in the pic, despite the damage. Hmmm, looks like international flights to the russian far east were stopped in the 1990s . The tourist was probably coming back from europe. Like you said , there's a whole bunch of tribal peoples in the pacific northwest , but since the garb looks so modern with the white and blue , I'd question the authenticity as far as determining his tribe .. if he even knows, or is of native american heritage, or not. I wouldnt really be surprised if he had a New York accent EX.I'm told Iron eyes Cody, from the Keep America Beautiful campaign , who teared up about the garbage all over the place , was Sicilian.

It looks like that might be a somewhat worse for wear hair pipe breast-plate Hair pipe breastplates were invented by the Comanche in the 1850's and was adopted by many other tribes of the Great Plains including the Crow, Sioux and Assiniboine tribes The eight point star pattern also appears in some native dress , but that doesnt say anything in particular. The red bag appears to possibly have cyrilic font ? so maybe the lady was travelling to russia and stopped over in Alaska. ( returning) Kind of a strange tourist oriented get-up though. Thats my guess anyway.

I may not be a rocket scientist , but if the particles become entangled over a period of time , then the progression of time cant be the entanglement itself .. the particles wouldnt know where in time or in what direction in time they were going. In mid entaglement they could just as easily become untangled. In what way could one measure a "period of time" ? Degree of entanglement ? well then the thing would have to either be completely entangled all the time - partly in the place it came from and partly in the place it was going, OR incompletely entangled as its moving ,, fine , but how would it know when it was going to stop moving to be completely entangled where it was? the trail of its entanglement would start at the origin of the universe and precociously extend to the end of the universe.

I wanna hear the version that gets told to primates , a lot