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Everything posted by Stosh
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1,Blackford called the PM a liar, in a meeting, the guy in the chair demanded he take the word back. What happens if he doesn't? 2, later that guy said 'one persons opinion is another person's fact. ' Don't y'all believe that there is anything that is true, or that someone can in fact, lie? Then he denied that he could ensure that they were going to be voting with all the facts in hand. Huh? So they are allowed to lie, fabricate, and omit...just so long as nobody contends based on true or false facts? What the hell was that meeting called ? And is that just a sort of discussion period, a vote to be done later?
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Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
I do! Really like that stickmap, they should sell em. But the techniques like this really don't seem long reaching enough. I recently saw a clip of an islander doing much the same, looking at stars ,counting logs, and it's just so incredible,,, however,, if discovery boils down to getting lost all the time, I could do that. π So far we know that an Atlantean got lost and eventually found Greece. We don't know if he ate his slaves. Do your buddies make cast nets by any chance?...... Why would one stock rats? -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
I am open to being convinced. What's the advanced tech? The outrigger? Or perhaps dead reckoning by the stars? What's "coordinated marine voyaging?" As opposed to, marine voyaging? What's advanced trading in obsidian? I give you rock, you hand over wife!π There's always the holy crap event. And that's when a dude says, Holy crap, I can't see land anymore! If the Atlanteans had battleships, how could they stumble over the proto Athenians , give up and go home? Oh my ,that naked man with a beard frowned! Quick, pack up, we're going home! If you know a place exists, you can make plans to get there. That doesn't need proving does it? A ship can sail all over the med , and in any direction hit land, and I suppose you might surmise Australia from the mainland , from clouds or birds or floating trees.or from Roti,, But how the heck do folks ever end up on Easter Island, not knowing it's out there to go to? It almost suggests outright ,that lost people were drifting all Over the ocean ! That doesn't sound like advanced maritime tech, it sounds like giant cojones. -
It's none of my business but I am finding these ideas expressed by Blair as horrifying. To it looks like politicians are indeed undermining the will of the people as being the Paramount importance. Instead he is thinking that he , is in a position to negotiate against the citizenry! This is going to bleed on us too, if you guys don't persevere on this, and escort the 'bums' out on a rail' Literally, as I was writing this, and listening to the clip, the interviewer starts pressing whether the voter is always right! And he had the nerve to try to talk his way around the problem! I'm thinking -Holy Crap! This is a bad as our Watergate issue! We we're blindly walking around ,having misplaced faith, that the gov was secure because this crap can 'never happen here.' Incredible. Our political establishments have decided that they either don't need endorsement beyond what they can force on us with propaganda, because so many have so little understanding of the principles! The tails are wagging the dogs.
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Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Using scrutiny, is not deserving of dismissal ,for being Pooh pooing. Going 90 miles by boat is pretty dinky by normal standards, when in NA obsidian has been found from locations hundreds , maybe thousands of miles Overland. Simple Walrus hide boats are taken long distances. Prehistoric people were able to do a lot with simple tech, and that's what they deserve credit for, not to be downplayed by presuming alien interference ,or that they had advanced maritime equipment or tech. I am not big on Cadiz or any existing place, for that matter, if the specs for the civilization are being fulfilled retroactively, and the source could potentially have been talking about any place on Earth. Who has never had flooding, or a war, or potential hubris? -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
That's what I am reading as well, but I am trying to be open to some scenario that would fit for an Atlantis,even broadly defined. They, Atlanteans, can't have been known to the Egyptians,as having chariots ,before they were invented, and adopted, by the Egyptians. Btw ,,which was only 3700ya. That's after the founding of Athens. So there can be no proto-Athenians to fight the Atlanteans, as I see it. Y'all go and proceed. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
The Germans remained Eurpopean in France. Nobody else mentions Atlanteans, and if just the Egyptians and Athenians recorded them ,they were indeed noticed. 11600ya is in fact more than 6 generations before Solon. The first chariot dates to appx 3700ya. Yamna culture showing up around 5300ya. Chariots were not yet invented , Athens wasn't founded,11600ya. And cattle weren't domesticated before 10500ya -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
This says they were all over in Europe ,so how are they not European? If they conquered much of the then known world, then they are a group we are aware of by some other name. They can't both be in Europe, and not, nor can they have conquered the known world unnoticed. Atlantis is destroyed at least six generations before Plato , can I say that ? did they have horses wheels and drink milk? -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Ok, a pervasive European culture, gets in a war, with proto Athenians, both groups get destroyed. New Athenians come over from Libya. Plato recounts the events preserved in oral tradition,? Is that the format? Then the Atlanteans could be the Celts that prehistorically dominated Europe ,had big rock tech, and was supplanted by cultures expanding from the Mediterranean with grain based agriculture. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
She is going to outline the events of a war, between two destroyed civilizations that happened ,oh,10000 years before anyone mentioned it? -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Ok, was Athens founded 5000ya or 12000ya. And if Athens was destroyed by cataclysm how is it still here? Above water -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Yeah, who knows what they got up to. I figure on orgies, spreading genes all over the place! Who the heck is the father of these bastages! -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Oh certainly ! That's all incredible, but in the end I think it boils down to humans with time on their hands. While Apech seems to be interested in the culture , the engineering and various technologies are what I find interesting. But not to diverge too far , that all doesn't look like space alien tech, fly to earth ,only to bang rocks on other rocks. So if there isn't anything else amazing techno-wise to Atlanteans, we are just looking a people who may have gotten around ( or had been found) and fit in with Plato's critique, in the 'Athens time frame' or a few hundred years earlier. It only took Columbus two and a half months to get to the new world in the big fat sailing ships he had , but if one really knew what they were setting out to find , it appears possible that sailing people had gone way way farther even , long before that. So my alternate Atlantis is the relic story , and the significant thing is the early voyages. It reverses the paradigm of the Atlanteans being the bringers of tech , but rather stone or bronze age folk coming out of Europe by sails rather than the overland progression of walking as their progenitors had done, were the bringers of tech. like big rock buildings. Its the 'Out of the Mediterranean' hypothesis. Following megalithic construction There is a loose trail leading from The Caucasus through Europe and out the Mediterranean. You can bang around with the dates and types of construction but If I were speculating , I would say that the advent of civilization did not begin in the Atlantic , it spread out from the Caucasus on this western end of Eurasia. Gobekli 12000ya Carnac France 6500ya Dolmens in Caucasus 6000ya Crete 6000ya Athens founded 5000 ya Stonehenge 5000ya Palenque 2200ya There were already people around , at least 60,000 ya in Australia. The out of Africa theory suggests this as the oldest expansion for modern people, and those folks went all the way from the Levant to Australia and beyond. And across that time frame were dating the local Densiovans ,Neanderthals and so forth. I think it might be ventured that the most recent significant human development would be the backcross with the Archaics. So from 60000 ya to 12000 years ago ... anything could have been going on and I dont know what that is. If were to hypothesize Ice Atlanteans , this would be their time period. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Presumably , it has to be more efficient , to cut and move big stones than small. If one has unlimited labor , then all you really need to do is have each person contribute a small stone-50lb , if a stone weighs 5 tons thats 10000 pounds- which is the work of 200 people and so thats roughly as many people you would have to presume ,are available to move any big stone. However , if one is cutting a big stone , many cuts are not made and therefore there is a big additional savings. If my math is correct ,, a 10000lb stone roughly 14x4x4 has appx 256 square feet of faced stone cuts the same weight if done in individual person size 50lb granite blocks has 1344 cut faces. So the big stone requires roughly a fifth of the cutting work as the small stones. in 'man efforts' you have now 200 moving men per big stone over a short distance , and five times as many men cutting sufficient stone for the project, by using big rocks . So I think this does suggest that its at least reasonable to figure that the large stone construction could be much more efficient , and that's why you would do it. And you would want the efficiency because you don't have unlimited labor. If one was using extraordinary means to cut the stones like lasers , you might cut into smaller blocks making it easier to move. If you were using levitation to move the rocks, you might as well cut them as huge as possible ,( fourteen feet by four by four isn't really all that big.) And if you had both these advanced technologies you wouldn't need to build in incremental blocks anyway! Just float a hill over and blast it to shape. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Ok, but they worked big stones in Greece, by conventional means. Plato would know that and it would mean that the big stonework wasn't by levitation. The Greeks knew the Egyptians ( Athens goes back 5000yr- great pyramid 4500yr) and would have used extraordinary means too, rather than just forget something mundane. If the great pyramid is mundane, everybody else's certainly was. Stonehenge also goes back 5000yr No? So what did the Atlanteans contribute? Navigation? Is the idea that Atlanteans connected places disconnected in time by thousands of years? Gobekli goes back 12000yrs so how could their stone tech be connected to Egypt or Greece ? -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
I see, then would it not be prudent to toss out all of his account, until it can be shown that the Ice Atlanteans existed? That would require us to circumscribe a people who may have lived anywhere ,done anything ,and existed for an indeterminate timeπ -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Yes sorry I was a bit vague - but if they were destroyed at the end of the last ice age they must have lived during it. Agreed, I , didn't say my thing well either, what I was getting at , is that we are either dealing with an Atlantean ice age culture that was flooded out by the rising sea-waters (10-11700ya), OR , we are dealing with an Atlantis that was defeated by the Athenians and visited thousands of years later,(maybe 800ya). But not both, because if they were flooded out , then they were not defeated by Atheninans. Well yes in a way, but the lack of fixed land for agriculture means they would be migratory like early neolithic and mesolithic peoples were. Possibly true ,based on food from the sea or the land , but then there's the issue of having advanced architecture , harbors etc, and so they would have to be envisioned as fishing at sea but building at a fixed location,and perhaps harvesting without planting. What? They were wiped out by disease? The difference in susceptibility of people coming from remote lands , and even more so vs those who come from centrally located ( crossroads), to diseases, is big. Look at the effect of Europeans on the New World populations. ( compared to the effect of the diseases they brought back with them to Europe) ( or the plague on Europe from China) If we postulate that the Atlanteans were just above the development of Greece then we don't have to assume they had antivirals and so forth. Good point - but its a critique of Plato's narrative rather than the general idea. I don't understand what you are getting at. The recent work on the human genome is fairly extensive. That can be fairly said , but anything they find has to be integrated with population dynamics , and even in the next few years there will be plenty of new fodder . Only recently has the genetic paradigm for humans shifted from the outmoded tree idea , and into a sort of flowing organic milieu, with crossbreeding of archaics and moderns . -
I googled 'indirect quote' , which is a paraphrase, and doesn't use quotation marks ,( like I didnt) Thing is, that I couldn't find anywhere that it was wrong to paraphrase. To paraphrase is to use my words to express what what I think you consider to be your point. It is not expected to be exact , and I don't think anyone holds you accountable for a paraphrase. ( so if I use the word 'scourge' or 'scold' is still covered under the paraphrase conditions. Well that is still my interpretation ( which you allow) , that you were self deprecating ,( you said that , correct? ) You do not believe the negative thing you implied about yourself , if you implied it. And the only thing you have a problem with is that I said that you said something , which you only implied. So you were giving me a hard time, for taking what you implied about yourself as -truly your opinion. That's really kind of unfair . I would hope you stop with the fake self deprecating statements, take ownership, ( as in keeping the term moral scourge) and not do what was done in this case,( set me up for a correction that you incurred) a lot. You still never responded to the thing where I accuse you of thinking you are right , and therefore you think you have a right to tell others what to do. I notice this wandering off thing , so don't think I don't notice. Yeah that is going to take a long time to get a spin on. Take your time. I'll wait. I like you.
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I didn't quote you . I attributed a sentiment , and it looked to me that you were asking 'rhetorically' because you wanted someone to deny the allegation. If you're self deprecating, does that mean you do not believe what youre saying , or that you do? And are you chastising me for using the term scourge , or attributing that you asserted yourself a scold? Why ? you admit you're self deprecating, doesn't that admit you were attributing a negative thing to yourself?
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Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Stosh replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
So far so good , the technology just has to be advanced over that of Plato's time. " The Pleistocene Epoch is typically defined as the time period that began about 2.6 million years ago and lasted until about 11,700 years ago." if this is correct then they wouldn't likely be pre-ice age , and since modern humans potentially only go back to 200000 ya . Mostly seafood. Settles all those issues. Gobekli is dated at a max of about 10000ya so the last Atlantans could have washed up there, but they didnt have the proper immune functions. If Plato's Atlantis was defeated by Athens , and Athens dates maybe 600BC . Then Atlantis couldn't have been destroyed by the advancing sea levels which peaked 10000 yrs ago. They would have been underwater for 9400 years. The scientific record is replete with blanks . -
Yes you had , and therefore you used the label -( its a creative and vivid use of the language though). Using the label indicates that you know full well , its implications , That you think you are right, and that this gives you the right, to tell other people what they should be doing. Now you are making nitpicky argument , and so this means you are full aware that the substantive part of what is said is true , but you have some ... nitpicky reason that makes you think you are 'correct' again, and just as I keep describing, you show up to tell me what to say! Ah, I see LIT likes the phrase as well ! Well done. Are my eyes failing me again , and am I seeing the phrase scourge or scold? I think I may have to see a shrink. Now I have to take credit for the term. Its not really very different though , and I didn't use quotation marks.
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Nisargadatta - A Quiet Mind is All You Need: If it's so simple why is it so hard?
Stosh replied to escott's topic in Systems and Teachers of
The next time Maharaj was met. He said,Hi. -
Luke called himself a moral scourge, elsewhere. These guys were the authors or philosophers I mentioned in that post. The Spanish Inquisition is known for trying to promote their worldview in brutal ways, but in that time, it wasn't considered abnormal, To benefit the soul of someone they were torturing. Which is a basic flaw of being your brothers keeper.
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Dude its all over the classics , why do you think MH ( may he rest in peace) called himself an Anarchist. It wasn't the revolutionary kind , it was the kind which left him to his moral code , and he left others to theirs. Once you take this stance , you consider yourself fully responsible. When folks instead ,gang up to impose a uniform morality they end up having to punish and so forth, things get ugly. I did a little interview with him , and it went smoothly , as long as I left him to his privacy , his choices,and I wasn't pushing him.Similarly , Good talk show hosts also learn how to allow the guest to pursue ,or not ,whatever they like. And it is a very pleasant and respectful way to converse , or interact in general. It is just central to all ones social interactions. Buddhism also approaches non-interference , with right speech , and so forth. Its even embodied in the 'Prime Directive' of Star Trek! But its not Christian ethic really. ( which is why Jesus was Crucified )
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I am not disagreeing with LIT, but there is IMO a lot more to consider about the meaning of your question and what issues this approaches, some key words of which I would like to bring to mind. Capitalism and our legal system ,are both antagonistic, we have sayings like buyer beware , mind your own business , butt out. There is also , enlightened self interest, The Art of War , Machiavelli , survival of the fittest , live n let die, and so forth. So , whether we personally take the moral stance that others 'should' be doing as we think , this is not really the virtue of many Classical works. You have called yourself a moral scourge , and in this you would be running against the virtues as these guys would see it, but if you were working for the Spanish Inquisition , you would fit right in. ( I am exaggerating)