Stosh

I thought he was giving you a left handed compliment , that you appear to use your brain to good advantage and do not say stupid stuff, but I don't know why you would say something like it, other than it being an exaggeration of a basic point that we may be our own worst enemy ,, or something like that.

We're hovering around the op and taking some side paths. IMO IMO NO ! the popular view has very very little to do what is described in TTC, incredibly way off the mark , sez I , I know others who feel I am wrong about this. Oh no, I do agree that the popular view is what you feel it is. Again , no its not the popular view, this is also an oversimplification , an unkind and polemic view. Cool. Yeah , but so what, the foundation for the view , is highly speculative. One should not correctly have any strongly held assertive attitude regarding it. IMO , the guy who thought the vinegar was sour, is me. Which one is supposed to be Buddha again ? Im thinking theLearner is accord with the correct reading of the Laozi regarding manipulation. His intent is subtle , is functional , possibly harmonious , and may bring out the best in his peers. He isnt standing on a lofty principle generating friction for himself , like I do. But hearing this from me, he should be able to believe that I really do think this, and thats why I remain on this chilly peak.

I may stand alone in this,, but to me , if you pretend (without sharing the understanding that its play ), even for the purpose of shifting the dynamic for the better, I still consider it scheming. Its still manipulating the presentation by depriving me of a true understanding of the situation. I personally don't particularly care for someone to snow me with flattery or to falsely insult me to get a psychological leg up. Its an insult either way really. The label of 'good' or 'bad' , regarding this kind of manipulation is up to you. I was raised to see this kind of thing in a highly negative light , and say it was the actions of a bullshit artist. I know folks who think this is really slick , they are proud of it , and think they are being highly effective. My personal experience is that I am going to be spanked, karmically perhaps, if I don't play the game. Sometimes I do bend on the issue, but, unbent its just not up for questioning. Considering oneself Forced into being manipulative, being equated to lighting a candle,, excuses a more complicated situation. Maybe the dark could've been fine too. Would you innately be more proud to stand on the principle of honesty , or on the principle of adaptation ( lighting a candle being an adaptation as well) ? Or , does some of the teachings folks present make a stand on this? which you feel supports your choice?

Shanxi vinegar ,, hmmm , so is there some reason to consider the painting to be of this specialty vinegar? I assume something about the vat or process suggests vinegar, but , The people however , may or may not be the personages of Lao , Confucious , Buddha. The reactions to the vinegar, may or may not be the flavors described. And the meaning of the painting may or may not be the one that was told to me. Examine the painting , the 'conventional' explanation provided, is not the only explanation that one could arrive at. If the guys depict who its said they depict, well the painter could think that Lao was biased, that he was presenting a skewed view. ANd so, the one who felt it was sour would be the 'right view'

Yes we would , but its a doubled edged thing.

It , being the mind. If I read that someone thinks I want to kill my father and have sex with my mother , I dont see that as true , neither do a believe the sweeping statements folks make about archetypes having something to do with me. I do have first hand knowledge of my personal experience, and I don't need to prove it to anyone else, The psych community has come up with ideas they havent proven,and cant prove, with that level of certainty. Though I know more than a few folks with problems , I don't know of any the psych community has cured. So while I do like and respect Michael , Ive got a beef with most shrinks.

The mind looks very different looking at it from the inside vs outside. I wonder how one could prove the validity of either view against the other.

I like snapdragons, they remind me of popcorn springing from the earth.

Hasnt anyone else ever tasted vinegar? its sour. I like it , but its sour. I also like pickled peppers and green apples, but thats besides the point. So I pose to thou bright minds, why would Lao be considering it sweet? If its not a judgement on the actual taste of vinegar , and the opinion of the protagonist isnt exactly correct nor deluded. ( since he is actually tasting it ) Im thinking it says something about the philosophy of lao. Principles, are supposed to hold true ,regardless of circumstance, so id say multiarms , that extrapolation or application of yours would hold water... and indicates that what was being discussed is a principle..to a reader that wishes to learn the principles applicable over a broad spectrum of situations. To others it may be presenting other considerations. Which is how one ends up with 2500 years of argument

So THATS what the inside of a pistacio looks like! :-)

Things allowed by Dao are possible, that which isnt , isnt . the word 'anything' is a little broad but the sentiment being expressed was wanted to convey enthusiasm at possibility rather than a railroad of fate. Please give each other a break.

Ill take your word for it that other groups share the foibles of my people. I was thinking about greek logic , rhetoric etc. About finding holes, with mental agility and desire one can patch them. Why does a man look for holes? Ans ..to see if the logic is weak. What if nothing is solid? Ans .. Start patching.

Im glad you guys hit like, I dont want to be a nuisance. I just wanted to add that dubious meanings may well have been intended. Western rationale ,, any rationale will work with it, just not certain attitudes.

IMO they are ,or they are not , depending on how one reads the text, whether one believes the essential nature of man is good -bad or otherwise , what translation you go with, and what phase the moon is in. I know from personal experience that you can give good advice , which if defied in spirit or practice , it will ultimately fail.. Whether the text works for any given person is dependent on whether one tries to see how it CAN go together. Typical western approach of such a thing is either to swallow it all without thinking, or spend ones energy trying to punch holes in the reasoning, I don't think one gets the meanings correct ,in this case, if one chooses one of those options. SO , I wonder in your stead, if this is something I already believe has value, or is it all just BS. If its all BS then -walk away ( for your own part , who cares how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? . If you think that it has GOT to be golden ! , since so many would not have fallen for BS , well , many faiths have popularity- but that isn't proof of a hell ,is it? I think not. If you think you see some good stuff in there, stuff you don't feel like a sucker for accepting..Well then I do think you have a reason to consider that these guys had something of value to say , for you to hear and consider. They dont tell you that you have to obey ten commandments, they expected the stuff to be examined on a personal level. If you want to give it a chance ,totally ignore all the stuff that I and everyone else has ever said to you about what any passage means , and I really do mean totally ignore everyone else's input as much you can. Which includes claims about who it was written for , how long it was written ago , who the authorship belongs to etc etc etc. How does it ring true to you? ....... not .....what do you imagine is wrong with this? And if it falls flat from there,,,, at least you gave it a good shake. ( i personally consider it a TOOL for personal growth , not the answer to everything from an angel what you make with it , is what you will get OUT of it)

This weekend, after waking-up from some meditations,, I spotted this Magnificent frigatebird through the tree tops. Never having seen one before, I knew exactly what it was and ran out onto the beach to get a photo. It made a big impression on me. Awesome, the sharp black shadow , a steady silent cut-out in the pallid sky as if no gravity nor wind could move it. I don't think I have ever seen such a creature as impressive, I felt honored just to have seen it.

Choose not to try to recover them.

Letters I ,I presume.

oh

That isn't what it says though.

Wouldnt his disciples arrive full, and depart empty?

If anyone does see some of those carolina parakeets please let me know. :-) Theyre presumed extinct, last wild ones known in okeefenokee , but one never knows for sure, I was ebirding shorttailed hawks, and the paucity of sightings impressed me since they may fly right over orlando and never get noticed. That goes for lots of species. Its odd.

I know, but not today.

Not me , but Jiddu Krishnamurti ..yes. More on point though , Im not sure loving others doesn't still tend to support a dualistic mindset. There's you, and then there are others, regardless of what the sentiment is. For instance, ones anger at someone else , one feels personally , they the other dont know it directly ,and so they really dont have much to do with the anger. Same goes for unrequited love. Either sentiment is an outgrowth of a non-unified worldview, or not. A person could hate themself , couldn't they. Which I am not promoting, but any sentiment one has is ones own , and while one can imagine a target of that sentiment the sentiment doesn't really involve anyone else.

Are you allowed to post the Great tits ? I can give you an opinion.