Stosh

Did you finally succeed in throwing any of them into the hole? or did they all bounce off..

Any living thing is part of an unbroken chain ,corals , aspen , even ants , and humans, that you, a human ,somehow stands apart from their ancestors or decendants or even relatives is just an impression based on the delineations one decides to draw. To a degree , one has a reason to draw a line around onesself , and say THIS IS ME ! because the content of it is that which we have some control over , that we sense directly. But one could draw that line more broadly, and extend it to our possessions , or groups , such as schools, races . We could also draw it more narrowly , to our body parts , our cells or dna or mind, or our bodies at this precise instant of time, etc. Depending on how one draws these mental lines , one can potentially see themselves as part only of a lineage , or perhaps part of life , and then .. the definition of immortal could both extend to anyone , ,, or it could fall apart being meaningless. Indicative only of an illusion we held , or hold.

So what is it that you have found is your true nature Mh ? And what is your pure body like Qingtian?

Weirdly fitting, I just was put in a situation where I had to obviously lie , or be rather harsh. I didnt take the advice of the picture though, it would have costed something significant to me. And now Im rather angry.

After but a few minutes of close self observation it should be clear that much of what we do , is done without overt supervision by our aware sense of self. Our minds would be far too busy confused and cluttered if we were to monitor each act closely. I tried monitoring very closely to guide all my movements at work one morning, and was constantly reverting back automatic behaviors , so I reduced my attentiveness to one arm , it still didnt work , then one hand and finally one finger. I never did get complete attentive control even then! I figure this is why even calligraphy can be used to hone ones awareness. But that doesnt make self supervision irrelevant , in order to complete a complicated task , I still was required to consider what I was about to do , it was not the case that I could let my my mind wander and rely on reflex or habit to guide the overall direction of what was going on. And so yes a captain at a tiller is a good analogy of what goes on. A personal analogy I like, is that of the flight mechanism of a housefly,, the wings must beat so quickly , that each beat cannot be monitored individually, the way it works , is that the thorax of the fly is flexible, like an elastic box to which the wings hinge, the box is flexed ,and which then vibrates several beats for each flexion. The guidance control requirement is reduced , and the tiny little brain of the fly can manage what it otherwise couldnt.

Now thats a Koan !

Chi Dragon is quite correct ,, Racial heritage, and mother tongue should have no significant influence, the content of ones understanding should be paramount.

Perhaps he was also the guy who travelled to Xizang , and was called Sun Tan !

Nice insight, I suspect the same ( that it can generate its own confusion) If I preach , and occasionally do , I know defenses are up.But , If one sees things for themselves , then they are in accord with the reasoning, ( it is their own isnt it?). Im thinking the point of the Koan is not to logically force a conclusion by the audience , though it is a presentation of a situation which may generate an understanding (which resolves into an acceptance of how things really are). The tree falling in the forest koan , need be considered from the situation of folks living back when the thing was originally considered. They didnt have the physics background we have today , so they were looking at the nature of sounds and experience in an unresolvable situation , and it makes a big difference in the power of the koan to do its thing. The attitude of accepting just how things are, is probably rarer today. And if you listen to arguments folks make , its often clear that the argument they are making is so weak that they themselves wouldnt bank on it unless it was all they had. So why would one make a weak argument ? because they are happier at the prospect of maintaining the opinion they already have than concede that what they just said is bs. A person recently said , another man might have met a third man , who lived a bit later, ,, based on the idea that the earlier person was pleasant and wise , 'so they probably lived a long time', and therefore the two likely knew each other. If the speaker had stopped at the reasonable supposition ,, 'they may well have met' , then thats a solid point. To go the step farther, is to introduce wish based support ,,, if you asked me, Id say it undermines the credibility on what may have been a sound perspective.

Well , central to a koan is a paradox , ( the example of the thread is more parable or exemplum, not a koan, because there is seemingly no paradox contained in it.) Since a paradox is unresolvable (presumably) , it is not a thing to be 'countered' with another koan , but this potentially might generate a third koan... and then your head would explode.

I havent an answer to this question and Im curious what might be an answer... Im just picking sneezing as an example .. If a Human is smart , and one learns and one does more of what one likes because they learn it and sneezing feels good Then why dont you learn to sneeze all the time?

Absolutely! and ,of course you are intended to 'cherry-pick'. This is why you weren't handed ten commandments and the threat of unprovable torture after death. There is no Right , no Wrong , No good , No evil , no nice , etc which is not a subjective assesment relative to ourselves. Wandering around a city, could I correctly help you find your way, by telling you ,to only turn left ? Id need to know where you wanted to get to. Where you are , and the various routes you might take. If anyone knows , you would know, what you wanted out of life , and where you were in it ,,, all thats available for me to help you with , is the layout of the roads , ( which are the same for anyone ) Is it easier if someone just says, Do X then Y then Z ? sure ! but thats me imposing my life role on you... and I just dont want the responsibility for doing that when in all likihood youre going to fu''K it up since its not your gig.

Sir Edmund had been invited to the party , He picked up a spoonful of sugar which had been intended for him , and plops it into the cup ! Sir edmund picks up the tea and swallows it down. Mmmmm he says. Your delicious tea is now sweeter , I liked it , and now it is mine. Ummmm but the mess on the table however , is all yours.

Well I'll say it , anger is a natural emotion to human beings. That being said , the reasons for it are pretty much due to sustaining illusions ( like , that you are an individual with rights ) the reason why we entertain this kind of mental construct , despite nature not giving a hoot at all about the "rights" we invent .... is because we LIKE them... we in fact LOVE them , and would be rather inhuman without them. Its just not true that every illusion people have is due to cupidity or weakness of some sort. To understand this idea of illusion, ( ideas which are subjective and without objective vindication) doesnt bless anyone with magical powers , but it does leave a venue to escape from self destructive behaviors which would ordinarily be demanded or occasioned. Nationality , Race , private property , human rights , injustice , money, to name a few ... roots causes of many of the worlds ills . The issue seems complicated, only because people DO want values and virtues to exist and regulate the social world. They want to feel good about themselves ,and feel that they literally ARE good, because they abide by the RULES. But nature doesnt care about deaths or misery , it doesnt produce food particularly well in a drought stricken area out of sympathy for the starving babies etc . That kind of thing is done by people , the minds of which are anything BUT 'natural'- in the conventional sense.. but the compassionate expression of nature happens via the minds of people , social animals etc. The closest nature gets to mercy is speedy death. So Taoism isnt about emulating natural forces , rather it is understanding the circumstances in which we exist , and living the best life we can , given the facts of human nature such as it is. ... IMO

IMO, Tao is nothing if not ironic. (Irony being the capacity to be seen as both appropriate and inappropriate at the same time.) So your sense of insanity proves youre getting it right. Im not a fan of phrases like TRUE and NATURE , however, How would I know if the nature I was seeing was true or not ? Id need another adjective , lets say , angry .. if I was angry , I know what that is and can distinguish it from not angry,, but my false 'nature' is also me and so what distinguishes it from true? because occasionally Im truly angry , given reason to be, naturally. PS youre allowed to choose one as right , and the other as wrong , thats natural, it just isnt true.

Mine likes to refuse my correctly input password, but I can live with that, the phone and I ,however, are not often on speaking terms.

What did Mh 'ridicule' not considering it valid etc blah blah ? Training to do a natural thing? You bring up postponed gratification , how is it that a person can do it,,,? if the mechanism is based on the triggering of neurotransmitters Then one would have to assume that a person , triggers the neurotransmitters even in an absence of actual stimulation... wouldnt that imply that a person could make themselves happy with no actual stimulation at all? that the brain can and does do that without conscious control at all , and therefore ones brain should learn to be happy and satisfied all the time. ( leading to a happily -apathetic death)

Ahh Great! marketing is a perfect angle to look at this from. Catch me up on the zeitgeist if you will, Now a coke or pepsi commercial has some subtleties working for it to try to motivate consumers. One sees the sexy babes in a modern context , therefore the product is seen as a modern one rather than an outdated one, or alternatively as a traditional american treat. It associates the product with attractive qualities, fun , young etc. Its a thing to enjoy. And yet while I am a vegetable watching it seemingly defenseless, I dont run out and get some. Not ever. Though I do like the babes , would prefer to be younger ,and having a blast all the time dancing around on a beach, trendy and yet secure in a traditional value. ( presumably) How would a marketer account for my resistance to the commercial ? EVEN if I DO opt for a coke when I go to Burger King.

Its an image editor as part of a larger program ,and I suppose its more common to have that program than photoshop or direct someone to load up an additional editor just to resize for a web app like this here. But, yes sure, some programs work better than others, though the 'sizing' issues in photography seem to pop up all over the place...do you do much editing and printing of photos? Issues arise here and there and its hard to get a straight answer sometimes, so Id ask you. As in , if you ordinarily sharpen 2 pixels worth at 50% in photoshop and then resize 50 % larger should one then correct for the softening effect by repeating at 2 pixels 50% ? Like, How come some folks have pix presented ,, ummm, full blown and others ( mine) are always in thumbnail ? I just tried your suggested easy thumbnails , yep its easy to install and use. I guess they are calling the resized image a 'thumbnail' even though its not a 'redirect style' thumbnail?

No sir , not sneezing on intentional demand, The Q is why is it you dont learn the behaviors that would satisfy a payoff based learning pattern without having to force yourself into what I consider some unnatural pattern of self training. Like in teaching yourself to hyperventilate rather than breathe as your body is designed to for an adult. If you asked a behaviorist , why gambling addictions occur, they may say that during the process the subject experiences a little dose of dopamine , which encourages a repeat of the sequence.. so even though they may consciously dislike the losing , the gambler may continue ,even to highly self destructive levels. But in sneezing , endorphins are also released , ( Im told) which is why you get a pleasant little chill. but its not at all ordinary for a person to get addicted to sneezing. Similarly , I like apples and twinkies ( now discontinued) , given a choice , I might reach for that twinkie first , and the supposition is that I get more of a payoff from eating the twinkie than the apple , though if I think about it retroactively , I relish the apple more. Remove a person from the pressure of strange social input and they do not start hyperventilating. Because these considerations present themselves , there is probably a principle which is coming into play which I dont know about relating to behavior ,, Since a great deal of the subject matter here discussed , relates to motivations behaviors attitudes , I would have thought that TTBs might have an alternate view which would supplement the normal behavioralists. The problem with the payoff based motivational scenario is that people do not seem to be optimizing the payoffs consistently beyond a very limited scope. Im not sneezing now , although I do have dopamine to dump .

.

Im revolving around the unconscious learning process too, the resistance , to unconsciously emulating the other persons breathing would be the good feeling of breathing better unconsciously experienced. It seems, you think that you can only incorporate ,unconsciously, "bad" habits like some innocent lamb overwhelmed because your conscious awareness isnt there to protect you.. is that right? But anyway ,Im not sure the idea that the awareness -generally described - attainable by meditation is considered "conscious" as in a structured understanding and noticing of what is beneficial or not since the general pattern is to dismiss or exclude thoughts until one arrives at a thought free experience. Im not really sure what is motivating folks to do these things , one would have to ask them , and thats what the significance of this thread is about to me, "Why do folks do ,or not do ,what they do?" Why do they learn what it is they do learn , and not learn what they might learn but don't. Is there is inherent impediment to learning certain things ( like to sneeze all the time) , its possible that one makes choices on liking , or that there are mental 'pay-offs' which add up to motivating what one does. And though it seems like there is some support for that idea , like drug abuse, but there is also some evidence that this mechanism is not so simple.

I don't see why not. That is what Chi Kung is all about. It takes practice daily for improvement. Well Cd I dont either , but its not the case , I just breathe normal ,and thats why Im posting these questions. But Ok I see how you are weighing naturalness- if its self benefitting , that is in accordance with the natural trend of behavior ,, So riding a bike would be 'natural' if it got one to ones desired destination quicker , right? Its a difficult definition though , because death would then be unnatural.

I dont SEE any pic though, so Im not sure if youre messing with me. (If you could tell me where my instructions got you stuck , Ill reword,,) One can resize easy in windows Microsoft office by double clicking on the open picture, then hit edit Pictures , hit resize. choose one of four predefined width and heights , hit OK, close office , tell it yes save, it changes screen presentation size. That pelican is supposed about 174 kilobytes though , and for some reason ,double clicking on it now , it says that its only 31 kb I dont really know why the numbers are not straight forward. Maybe one is data size and the other is presentation size ( as it fits on a screen used at its native resolution )

I would think if you wanted peace of mind ,and found it , then you shouldnt bother to press forward with anything else,, what would be the point? Wouldnt it then disturb the aforesaid found "peace of mind" ?