Stosh

Beliefs have just as much potential to be very very useful. I believe my keys will stay on the table where I put them because I believe the laws of physics will keep them from flying away. I believe those physical laws are absolute and there are never ever any exceptions to them .. and I can supply proof of it. My keys are staying put.

You may be right about me not really responding to that which you are trying to say. So I googled the word conscience. Im thinking that it may be the use of this term which is discordant ..as the normal usage doesnt encompass all you appear to mean.Rephrased I might understand more clearly your meaning.

Yep It sounds a bit opposite..but I photo the species for a collection of my own..and so were each setting before ourselves enjoyable tasks that give us things to do hearkening back to a time when the tasks had more serious implications. Im not sure what hobby wouldnt fit that description though. So I guess its just an excuse.

I dunno, the weekends here and Im gonna go to the coast to see what birds are out there, and I have a whole pile of chores Ive let slide BADLY.

Just a consideration worth keeping in mind,, one can always eat more than they can exercise away.

Ok, then Ill leave it in Mhs capable hands.

Thanks , me too .. in agreement with you.

Here’s my quickie summation , which has plenty of meat on its bones to pick at (by virtue of being a quickie) but I consider it essentially solid. Bon appetite Figuratively speaking , there is a world of the subjective and a world of the objective , the objective is the stuff which can be corroborated – it might be called material , and the subjective is stuff that can only be experienced by an individual AS an individual -it might be called mental. The mental has effects in the material world , when we do things intentionally, like move muscles we have control over. And the material has effects in the mental world, as in, drug use. So all these things exist,, if you say either world exists.. and by general usage of the world we assume at least something exists therefore all does exist . Everything we experience of the material world is filtered through the mechanisms of our senses , neither you nor I ,can see ultraviolet light but such is out there anyway, you cant see it so effectively it is ‘filtered’ out of your perceptions. This ultraviolet we can still infer by its effects , we get sunburned. Similarly our desires – our motivations , are things which are inferred , and are known to exist because we do things as a result of them , they are a reaching out , an attempt at embrace , a means to include, the essence of what we are with whatever we believe is OUT THERE. Our retreat from that which is out there , due to unpleasant events, could also be considered a desire in the form of a return to a state of grace or satisfaction or peace or whatever. Desires are real, but must be inferred , they are the means by which we come into accord with the universe, and that which divides us from perfect grace.

I dont get it ,are you looking for a elaborated "argument" as material for a refutation? If I thought it my argument ,,ultimately would be solidly refutable,, I would try to figure the correction out for myself , not present it to TTBs as if I was falsely secure about its foundation. But, Ok , Ill try to make one for you to attack , I just need to think on it a while.

The controling the future portion was intended merely as a clarification, the meat was that your desire exists and its evidenced by the fact that you pursue SOMETHING which gets called desire..Without the motivation of some kind of desire What the heck COULD you do ? Sneeze?

Sorry I just dont agree with that. Yes there is free floating anxiety, and yes there is insanity, and yes there are drug induced and hormonally mediated emotional swings.. but anxiety has cause the target of the moment is the variable... , the insane have a rationale all their own though sometimes disjointed.., and drugs or hormones have physical associations which are independent of the origin of conscience (since not everyone who has a conscience is on drugs nor are they all hormonally unbalanced. If merely some verbal reference to a situation can prick a conscience, then it is a result of a mental association with the subject that prompts the reaction. One may be informed of their conscience by its "feeling" but the prompt still relies on associations with personal and social rules.

Feelings about what?? decisions behaviors judgements.. not ice cream cones..

The division between you and your environment is an illusion . You eat and breathe drop hairs exert gravity etc. Though your internal pressures are in balance with air pressue youd come apart without it . You are but an imagined subdivision of a whole.

You cant control the future, you can only act in the present to bring about what you expect would be a good future. The motivation exists in the present , or you wouldnt be able to do anything intensional. Which I am sure you do ..so the thing that doesnt exist would be the future that one did not eventually exist in.

Good-bad Im sure. Most likely naughty.

There is a difference between man-made morality, which differs according to culture and geographic location, as well as time period (for instance in some places and times it is morally correct to chop off a thief's hand, to take a woman against her will, etc.) - and the feeling of conscience, which is inborn. Morality belongs to the conditional world of learned response, conscience belongs to the natural function of the human body-mind. If you want to we can dig at this, Are not the conclusions or judgements of ones conscience also learned? While across cultures it appears that there is conscience , what actually it dictates ,is still at the whim of society and subject only tangentially to the expedience of the situation. Is military service a natural thing to feel duty bound for ? Does one feel guilty for ploughing through a stopsign whether or not anyone else is around? Do not people have secret guilts that most anybody else would say are silly , misguided, self destructive? Im thinking these things indicate that the 'natural' choices of conscience, like that of 'not stealing' are still learned , its just that living in groups its likely that there would be a taboo about it , (because folks want to keep their own stuff secure).

Waking the dead is often considered bad.

No, 'anything isnt real depending only on if you believe it' , because, If reality smacks you in the head, you will feel it whether or not you intended to believe it. Your belief followed the event. Surprise alone is sufficient to demonstrate your beliefs dont create the context of reality, your beliefs only delineate your subjective view of reality,, which is quite a different thing.

Yeah , that was nicely expressed.. thats a thread-ender.

para 1 agreed , yes personally most people have some kind of conscience , societally there is also morality. para 2 Ok thats mostly personal view , I have no big issue with it since the ramifications of that difference dont strike me as great . para 3 well, 'materialism' (in terms of valuing material goods etc) isnt a disease , its an attempt to bring the internal assessment of the world into balance with the external situation , and to a degree it does work, I too like a nice comfy bed ,good meal, hot shower, etc. Thats why it's popular. It does have a downside though. para 4 The situation is on the doorstep where traditional values will need to be reexamined yes. Population growth , exploration of space , horriffic weapons of mass destruction etc all will come to bear in the next century ,or so I expect. para 5 I dont know what that means.

Yes, were in general agreement here once again, I think one can blame him for his delusions. The question then evolves to ' is there some functional benefit to assigning blame for such a thing (if nothing is going to be changed in light of the blame) ' ,, just as you said. But besides the direct response of "retaliation" or punishment.. am I not delineating what it is that I think is right for me and everyone else in blaming the other party ? A friend once wryly paraphrased to me, " Boy! am I glad I felt that way about that guy !" So assessment of guilt is a somewhat logical process of evaluation drawing lines , molding ones own morality. And On the other hand it makes it hard to forgive , either others or oneself , and can justify behaviors which we ordinarily wouldnt feel were right. I think Chang suggested something along the lines that one need not be compelled to collect debts, but should keep them tallied

Yep , the actions and non-actions ,both, are attributed responsibility , by people on people (including me) ,, which means that one cant be in a state of not- being- blameable , for either their words, actions,or non-actions. (Unconscious thought is a foggy area though relating to this.) These things responsibility and blame are human conventions , they dont have an external factual veracity,, if you know what I mean,, So I can in fact blame people for anything I want , really, but there would still be the issue of whether the assignment of blame was something which fit the standard thought processes of society. Are you positing that the unconscious person cannot be blamed because it doesnt exist? Id blame the non-interfering parent for the abandonment of their responsibility incurred by having the child in the first place , as I figure you would , its a pretty standard opinion. But no , I cant blame someone-- rightly,, by societal standards of reason and responsibility attribution --, who doesnt in fact exist. The idea of nullifying impacts ,that is , the good to the snake and bad to the baby leading to a zero net "good" is also very subjective.. again suggesting to me that one cannot HAVE a situation of no impact , since I believe there are ramifications to both of the impacting effects that do not cancel. For instance, one thing was a snake , and the other a baby , so who is it to say, that the good to one matches quantitatively the bad to the other? Are you positing that the unconscious cannot be blamed because it doesnt materially exist?

Well no , you couldnt fairly judge someone poorly or well, by even conventional standards , if they arent having any impact , bearing responsibility etc . But a parent watching their baby being swallowed by a python, and not doing anything about it ,, would be another situation , Yes?

I like that , but need to puzzle about it a little , its very creative ... hmmmm

Well I like to stay away from using the word evil, doing that , I'd agree that having less limitations we would indeed likely pursue our subc-desires farther. Also Id have to agree less caution would be needed if, there werent so many hostile ape-jerks to deal with - essentially teaching cautious behaviors. Faith in humanity , well such as that seems to mean that humanity has not as yet lived up to its side of the equasion, though we'd want it to .. and so we havent gone rogue back at humanity . Which it actually deserves. Nature and nurture equate to good and bad? ( I get the idea , I just dont share that opinion because ther is natural good ves bad and nurtured ideas about such ) ... but who is beyond judgement by whom??