Stosh

That's what I am thinking too Mh ,the only one of us that may think you are supposed to have thought of everything, know everything in order to teach and investigate the topic is not me. If it was all figured out.. cut dried and put away neatly like Cd is pretending we could just buy the Cliffs Notes memorize it , and then it would all just be common knowlege ..like how to play tic tac toe. The best hosts on tv or journalists in the news are themselves investigatintg even when they already have a solid understanding of the subject.u If I cared to I could just google up what so and so said on the subject , but then all I might consider is what so and so found interesting. Besides ,if someone doesn't think Ming ling is just a random tree, because the written symbol indicates one of those forest things, then the author wanted it to be ambiguous. .wanted it to be examined. It never was supposed to be a literal quid pro quo situation. So although one could provide rationale for picking a certain meaning , there is no FACT of it. Is a peng a monster a bird an albino guy? As the several perspectives are demonstrating the answer is that it is... but not as a factual certainty. It is illusion, things that appear to be- literally Are, and yet there is no objective fact of it.because it os a subjective story.

CD Are Ming ling Ta Khun both species of trees or nonspecific words for trees or human names given to some old trees like General Sherman? Why assume the dove was lazy? And again dimiss the properties of the trees ? Doves and cicadas also have symbolic attributes. In section 3 the dove is now a quail, and he is speaking about the views of different perspectoves, is he not? Then, though I haven't googled it quail probably have a different symbolic association than doves do or he would just be contradicting himself.

I couldnt possibly !

I dont remember when you told me I think to much.. I've been too busy thinking. But seriously ,Im just not one to Ohhh I get it ! but in my private secret mind be thinking huh? Theres lots and lots of stuff in the work to investigate evidence to come to various conclusions. Im tossing some of them to suggest that there is more than just the overview to be considered,, there are nuances, twists , jokes. Otherwise its like reading the Christian bible and walking away with only the "Golden rule". Im saying "loosen up folks, use the other side of your brain"

Well ,there is symbolism employed , and though I think I get the general ideas , if one is going to look closer and get a finer read on his stories then one needs to look at them symbols more closely, the meanings of which may have been different back then, For instance if the attitude about elms and Sappan-wood trees was centered around their medicinal properties then one might take them for analogies for the injuries (sappan-wood) and illnesses ( elm) ,,of life , and then he would be being much more specific about what earlier efforts had been made... that he exceeds them by looking at the root of mans dissatisfactions rather than the intermediate mundane afflictions of the human condition. Yes Li then was approximate , revolving around the amount of effort that a thing took , like we use the term horsepower or furlong ,, but then , in that aspect of it we are being pointed to the significance of the use of distances as being metaphor for effort and experience over time.. Or so methinks.

I was just suggesting an alternate visualization which would superimpose over two 'fishes'. Im saying they arent neccesarily fish at all. Who says they are fish? they have no fins or gills. They have no scales. They could be two mating sea slugs , a swirl of cream in a dark coffee. more fanciful still they could be a circling tiger and dragon ! Did Zz (or Lao) say they are always both fish ? Or could they sometimes be a guy with white skin floating over the earth? Atlantis ? Dude If they existed and if they sacrificed a goat ,is the Taiji now a goat? Cmon.

Is there any chance that the Peng is a bat or dragon , which might suggest a dark thing in a light sky , versus a silvery fish in a dark sea ,, and therefore reminicent of the tai chi symbol?

Wheres Ku supposed to be? Is Ta kung supposed to be a tree as well? If one goes 100 li why couldnt you carry provisions that far. In that time was the sappan-wood tree known for its antibacterial properties? Was the elm known for its demulcent properties? Is Urob on target about the wind being chi ? The li (里, lǐ) is a traditional Chinese unit of distance, which has varied considerably over time but now has a standardized length of 500 metres (1,640 feet) or half a kilometer. A modern li consists of 1,500 Chinese "feet" or chi and, in the past, was often translated as a "mile." Since the li has generally been only about a third as long as the mile, translating the character as "Chinese mile" or simply "li" is much less likely to produce confusion or error. In practice however, as late as the 1940s, a li did not represent a fixed measure. It could be longer or shorter depending on the effort required to cover the distance.[1]

Yep one can choose it as a starting point but that doesn't give it a universal validity. Never give a sucker an even break, all of Tsun tzu , homophobia xenophobia slavery etc all had and still have proponents.You or someone else , promoting their view as moral with some sort of justification external to themselves is why you have crusades witch trials crucifixions. This is why one must employ a broader perspective than , I know what's right for everyone.That being said to get things rolling ... I await the morality test then. Not being christian this should be interesting.

Gutter and high toned are both subjective values. Henry 8 could have been considered either regardiing his marriages. Nazis considered extermination of Jews to be a moral imperative. American settlers of the west had similar views. Since these views are so reversed from current views in many places , I don't see how they could be numbered and compared, vegetarianism homosexuals traditional family structures capitalism communism etc. For any moral opinion somone elsewhere feels the reverse of it is the more moral stance.

What's a unit of moral magnitude?

OR it could be marblehead waking up from a nap.

Yeah well the prespective of the young might look like its similar to the perspective of the wizened.

Ok , Ive been looking on the web , it seems there were a number of Neolithic cultures in the area north south east and west of Shaanxi back to 7000 BCe or so ,, and so it would depend on what one was calling "non chinese". The Pengtoushan culture (simplified Chinese: 彭头山文化; traditional Chinese: 彭頭山文化), dating 7500–6100 BCE,[1] was a Neolithic culture centered primarily around the central Yangtze River region in northwestern Hunan, China.

No worries

Agreed , his perspective is altogether different from me and Urob.s

I would rather pester him.

Ok, in the other section , peng is mountainlike , covering both bases ( peng and Kun) thats a reasonable fit.

The Tarim site seems to imply that the folks there were traders that intermarried with the local types rather than being alien troublemakers. I don't know , they may have conquered that area, its not salient here though -I'm just pointing to it as contact between east and west , trading, cross cultural dispersion of ideas ,, even predating Huang Lao. And, by the way, nice to have you join in this discussion.

I am pretty sure you posted that Cz liked to exaggerate that he was a giant fish. But even if not , just following the subject along through the end of the chapter it looks like he actually is making use of multiple names and analogies for his own progress through previous ignorance as Leih tzu and had been too materialistic to understand the perspective of subjectivity and admits his new name as Mastr r Chuang now that he had wised up. SO the whole chapter is a discussion about his journey to this new perspective. Now I see why there is speculation about whether the two were really one and the same persons or philosophies. VERY interesting. Ill just stick with that because it is at least a common thread , until a more convincing interp is leveled .

Ok Who or what is represented by wind if it isn't the wind association with the heavens ?

Well I have access to a nice fast land line at work so I went cheap at home. I printed the two chapters . I just can't zip around on the interweb to fact check. It doesn't matter anywho since I really should be playing it straight up from the text and be ready for the inevitable and abundant spankings in store.

Trying to get this added up, Cd says that Zz is the big fish Kun which becomes the peng which in section 2 Zz says is the longest lived man. So Ming ling and Ta Khun would also be people who are not as wise as he is because he had more help from wind.

You caught me, its a quickie Chuang tzu quote search on the interweb. I put three in to demonstrate the difference in attitudes and cover for Cd shooting one or two down out pf hand. Its too complicated to search the web from here so I can't give the chapter and section right now. Maybe Mh can add an accurate correlation. I barely have connection.

Forget the years, forget distinctions. Leap into the boundless and make it your home! Zz There is no failure Flow with whatever may happen, and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate.” Immersed in the wonder of the Tao, you can deal with whatever life brings you, And when death comes, you are ready.” Doesnt look like Laos bummer anal retentive failure scenario at all ! :)