Stosh

Trouble ? Im just saying the true and reasonable thing there. for the benefit of anybody who wants to hear it today Stosh

And folks worry whether I care about bears or not! Stosh

It depends on circumstance doesnt it? If I have an empty water glass its not doing me any good. I might as well throw it away. If I fill the glass, then the glass is useful for holding the water till I get around to drinking it. Stosh

Not doing things unnatural, seems like decent advice. You said... "Please do not apply your English thinking into to TTC thinking." Thinking is thinking Sir. I stand by the idea that what one man can construe ,another can too. I am trying to reconcile the two. Thats all. Stosh

Aggressively defending your opinions is neither good or bad in itself since there is no good or bad objectively speaking. The cure is to not care what anybody else thinks. What folks think is due to their perspective , which is often not very similar to your own Not to care about your reputation let it take care of itself (it will anyway) Not to care about getting to the truth of the matter. Most of the time truth is subjective anyhow Not to care about validation or invalidation Who is anybody else that they have the right to be your validator? Leaving other folks to their wrongness can be fun Truth is , that folks mostly want to keep whatever ideas they already have, they dont want to be swinging in the breeze suggestible to everything that passes by Having a strong motivation to correct errors can come from the idea that "truth" is more beneficial than complacency, and your argument may be made for altruistic purposes. For the purpose of just getting along with folks, leave them be thats what they want and it is the lightest burden for you. Another reason folks talk to others is that in the act of it one delves into themselves, it can be revealing because the undercurrents of why we say or do or think things is to a degree hidden. You can develop your own thinking when a sounding board is present. As long as you retain the motivations you have now, you will likely continue as you do. Just talk more with folks who are tolerant to it. Stosh

What exactly are the improvements supposed to be? Blue background? Stosh On second thought The typing area does seem less balky Thats a big improvement Thumbs up!

That isnt a weak argument in many contexts But the original text doesnt stike me as having much in common with the idea of finding peace, satisfaction,and acceptance The theme is to continue to stretch for new experiences and attatchments not to find comfort in what one already IS innately,and what one already has. It is eternally grasping and extending. This isnt my view of what Tao offers From the context of Tsun tsu who delineated life as a situation of eternally recurring conflict The idea of continually marching forward in a cloud of uncertainty it doesnt make sense either unless one would still have fear when they had assesed their situation as "certain". But like I said elsewhere "everything is gonna be alright anyway" there are many ways to 'do' ones life. And you are entitled to find meaning in it, and pursue it, however you like, and to kick proverbial dust in everyone elses face about how well you lived it someday. (In all likelihood they will feel the same,but thats irrellevant.) Stosh

I find this forum similar to the Eternal Tao It allows nothing to go uncontested for long Stosh

From what you have written , I figure we both might take exception , to the idea that Lao.. advised that leaders of the day .. To subjugate the people of their own country by promoting ignorance and encouraging fear. I think,,, We also dont care for the idea that he suggested that .. The people would be better off one hundred fold if they did nothing and knew nothing. So there is certainly precedent for our agreement. Keeping that in mind ,, I have two translations of the ttc at home I attempted to compare them They dont look very similar at all I understand that the classical Chinese writing system did not have the same structure that English does. It appears to be much less definite,( or more broad ), in the meaning that can be construed to parts taken out of context. This would imply-allow flexibility-uncertainty in translations done thousands of years later. Keeping this in mind I address directly your counter-questions. Don't you think that "Trailing to a natural path" implies the meaning of "the attitude of Wu Wei"....??? Yes it could , but the context you gave was that Lao already addresses what it means , and I see no reason to get 'flexible' at that point in the translation , by narrowing it down. He said what he wanted to say about it, and though I personally LIKE the smoothness of this other phrase,, I see the meaning getting more vague. I do not however , consider this to be a big issue here. You had earlier said Isn't what lines 14 through 18 are, the hidden messages which are suggesting that Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course" This is the main issue I am more concerned about. My answer is NO , that is not what 'let nature take its course' means to western readers (who are unable to read the classical chinese) , It is OUR idiom , it has OUR connotations, it is colloquial speech it is not an obscure phrase, amenable to re-definition. Using this term does nothing to cure the "DO NOTHING" interpretation of wu wei which you decry as 'misunderstanding' on our part. It reitterates underlines condones supports that very misunderstanding! Because the term boils several lines of that chapter down to only one. "Mind your own business" isnt a great phrase but its better than "DO NOTHING" Or it could be "do not act obstructively" or it could be "cause no undue disturbance" Or you can JUST pick something else that will suffice when referring only to the definition that Lao delineated himself. My whole point here is that , if you want to fix the misunderstanding you have to find some other phrase that doesnt have Lao suggesting that folks shouldnt do anything about anything! (unless that is what you feel it truly means) Stosh

[in reference to post #4 of secondary wu ei thread You said that Line 13 Sage handles matters in a natural manner(Wu Wei). and that That line referrs to the subsequent ones You said "LaoTze was introducing all this natural phenomena for his explanations in the future chapters." Which indicates that he is defining what the term means precisely ..as he means it! Why are you retreating from that by inferring that it was only "clues" in your next statement "Lines 14 through 18 are the samples given the clues to the reader, in bold, to show what Wu Wei was. Hence, one must consider these clues as definition for Wu Wei for the interpretation of the Tao Te Ching in the later chapters." Then you go farther and redefine what he meant to an english phrase Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course". to a native english speaker. It means ..to let things happen as they would without interference (as in line 15 , alone !) this leaves lines 14,16,17,18,19,and 20- obviated. If he wasnt writing just to fill space, then those other lines retain significance, and if they retain significance, one cannot rightly boil the concept down to line 15 alone. Either he is saying one can rightly influence ,in subtle ways what will happen , or he is saying one should not influence, in any way that which will happen , (in order to copy a sage). In post 12 It seems that Pinyin uses the wei wu wei term in line 13 and that your translation shifts from that precision (precision by virtue of being already defined in ch 2) to 'trailing a natural path' in your line 14 then you cross out your own lines 14 and 15 , in post 16 ! then line 14 is changed to wu-wei in post 17! Seriously , I dont know any chinese,, but the logic being employed Exposes itself to doubt based on its own appearance. Sorry, Ill just quit the thread. Stosh

Go ahead and say it! Stosh

just a little twisted humor

Lots of us may be searching for spiritual advancement/enlightenment, but is there really only one way to get there ? Id say your point is valid and that each of us is looking for our own peace using clues we have in common Glean what you can and be comfortable with others finding different pearls. Each of us is our own expert in our own 'way' and is largely oblivious to everyone elses regardless of whether we have been issued an ID card Just my opinion Stosh

Horrifying! Stosh

The phillosophy it represents , to continue pushing ones limits for the sake of pushing ones limits seems like a perfect example of neurotic behavior. Tsun tsu 15. Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory. Stosh

Sorry Chi d it still looks like you are crossing out "for the people" and then endorsing it. Wei wu wei means You are doing natural things to act in a fashion in accordance with wu wei? and wu wei means for the people so fully written it becomes ? You are doing natural things to act in a fashion which is in accordance with the welfare of the people. Stosh

My condolences , regarding the loss of your cat. Its a rough turn. Stosh

I thought it was zazen that attacked things that attacked zazen. Stosh

AND THAT'S MY NIGHTMARE DOG STORY!!! eh, it's so good to just ramble Ive been told that all the characters in our dreams are aspects of ourselves symbolically represented, and so the best person to analyse dreams is ourself. If we can accept the verdicts. Stosh

Tao is irony manifest Stosh

Im an english speaker and feel I am willing to accept the translation if it makes sense . This has nothing to do with the attitudes of native english speakers it has to do with clarity. wu wei means,,,, 'without unnatural action' wei wu wei means ...'for the sake of being without unnatural action' wei wu wei means... 'The lack of action in this way effects the desired change' wei wu wei means.... 'for the people' reconfigured to english grammar wei wu wei means 'effecting desired changes without unnatural action for the sake of everyone' Does that put everyone on the same page linguistically? Stosh

I like to respond to any direct question though I know the weekend has passed So Im sorry if I am interrupting the linguistic arguments I leave that to the guys who know that subject Was it intentional ? Yes I was trying to segue with the standard views from my own angle I dont actually see huge differences in the meanings that are being attributed to the idea itself My own description of behaviors ... Minding your own business performing the tasks that fall to you reacting appropriate to the situation as it stands accepting the limitations and options of the situation working to avoid being self destructive maintaining onesself as avidly as one would maintain the wellbeing of others etc... just doesnt seem to be contraindicated by any of the various interpretations of the term that have been bestowed, Except! for the definition which makes no sense at all the one where you dont do anything and would be sentenced to rot in place. If my meaning isnt the same as Lao-tsu s (as written by whoever wrote out the most legit copy) ... Which is possible... I still wouldnt think myself to have given me a bum steer Stosh PS. I thought it ironic that in order to consider wei wu wei you went out and did some.

If I am guessing right Mh wants to put it to rest solidly too. My opinon is the reverse of your own , meditation has nothing to do with wei wu wei Cleaning the fish pond however, is right in line with it. Mh would be doing exactly the normal thing to do in response to the fish pond requiring it. So he is harmonious with the situation He isnt doing any kind of crazy stuff he isnt avoiding it he isnt destroying it he is maintaining the status quo he is not preparing it for the fish pond olympics he isnt doing it repetetively to avoid emotional issues he isnt going for a shallow swim to use scuba gear he isnt drinking the water he isnt praying to it he isnt giving it pet names so it will learn to fetch You get the idea I guess He is doing physically, fulfilling a role he is not trying to fight the nature of the circumstance Stosh

You have and Im happy to accept the term gentleman since I try for that (mostly) but the scholar thing is a little of a stretch for me to fit but Ill take it when it falls my way. Thanks Stosh