Stosh

No offense taken at all !! really ! I thought it was funny too once you pointed that sequence out. And yep I think the water thing is analagous to human behaviors endeavors attitudes , I see it as intentionally imprecise. A big chunk of the wisdom is that you yourself look to see what is the meaning that it posesses. I Sometimes see this one as being true to your nature, taking the opportunities as they arise yet being settled till they do. But the way it feels right to you is the one you should respect. A totally different example of that kind of "general advice" is Tsun tsu's art of war He doesnt know exactly what you are going to face, and cant spell out what you should do, the best he can do is lay out the cards you need to consider and point at the direction one best plays those cards. ( I think its beautifully structured especially considering the subject matter). Stosh

Great , Basher can joke there a bit at my expense but what I am aiming at, I think you see There are all sorts of fancy metaphysical and linguistic arguments being employed around the subject,,the conjugations in chinese and western vs eastern tradition etc but in the end , the meaning has to make sense in a real time practical world What the heck does it mean to 'be like water'? What the heck is 'doing but not doing?' and I'm looking at it from the end point perspective first. as in What sort of living brings folks peace? What would a peaceful person be doing down the street from me? What was the perspective he had that enabled him to look at the world with acceptance? And so forth Because I think the ancients did just that themselves! They grounded their ideas in real-world observations. I am well aware my interps are seen as pedantic by some and those folks are expecting weird and inexplicable answers. They think of monks staring at walls and various types of behavior which arent commonplace. But looking at Lao as a wise and indulgent grandparent trying to benefit his own decendants ... all of a sudden none of it seems impossible ,pie-in-the-sky hypothetical dreamland stuff you arent ever going to "get." Nor are there unrevealed hidden nuances in the Chinese that makes much difference. ( good translation is terriffic and difficult but once you 'get' the point ..that job is done and you live it to benefit by it) Stosh

Folks do acts of wei wu wei every day its just the terminology that is skewed folks are looking for extreme stuff but its the mundane crap that fits the definition You go to work, do your job, mind your own business, B.S. with your coworkers ,use a bit of common sense give the wife a hug, walk the dog, meditate a bit and hit the sack. Its living simply , not trying to be the belle of the ball strike it rich or determine the fate of the masses. Stosh

Fair and truly said but I dont know where you are going with it. Personally, I am not out to govern folks and it is probably true that the ignorant are easier to handle, but I rebel at the idea that ignorance is bliss Besides , most folks want to keep the ideas they already have and trust Only those who do not yet have ideas, which they think they can trust, will embrace new ones. So if you or I ever convince anyone of something new their faith was shaken-betrayed beforehand. ( I can say that for myself for sure) Stosh

Nicely said , for it seems a sound thought to me as well such as it was stated. Stosh

Terriffic !

Thats good enough for me But if you want to point at the thing I said that was incorrect or the flaw in the reasoning Im willing to address it-them. My expectation is that it is more the 'spiritual attitude' that you dont embrace and it is birthed in the idea that wei wu wei or Tao is supposed to direct one to "be good" and I am not telling folks that they need to be nice or good or ANYTHING Thats up to you-them Im just saying that the message is about freeing you from the burdens self and externally sourced and engrained attitudes. Stosh

Yes it would be extremely dispassionate Do you think that Tao or Buddhism is about enhancing passions? If it were rattlesnakes in there would you feel responsible, compelled, to do something about it? Are you happy with these biases and compulsions? Then keep them. Who is there to tell you can't? Stosh

Men arent bears The thing with the bears is a karmic act of compassion for bears (at best) Human nature is to partake of the human social contract and again if you or I were to rescue people stuck in the dumpster its still a karmic act theres nothing to prevent you from doing a karmic act theres no policeman or godly judge to push you to it nor to push you away from it Its just not an example demonstrating wei wu wei It also isnt a direct transgression of wei wu wei either for the reasons already given Ive personally done as much for raccoons in our dumpster not 100 yards from where I am sitting now. but that doesnt make it an example of wei wu wei I am writing this post, with best intent and that still isnt an act of wei wu wei! The underlying intent of Lao tzu wasnt to set new requirements responsibilities standards , to make us all "good" people ,,we are already 'good',unless rendered elsewise. The point , trickled down from one to the next for over two thousand years was a compassionate one to let us OFF our own 'hook' .. that we dont need to carry the responsibilities of the world and that "every little thing ..gonna be alright" anyway! and its gonna be just fine even if you do want to rescue bears! And they sent a whole slew of examples and scenarios and hints to make it even easier! There is no supernatural something that spanks those who help, or do not want to, help bears. Everything gonna be alright anyway! Stosh

I think Ill probably be the only bum with this view but Ill say it anyway Helping the bears is not a wu wei act Ill explain A long time ago It was explained to me what was meant by keeping to the flow of ones nature (I have forgotten the reference but I can look for it) What would be unnatural ,would be for a man to act like a horse That a man would do something self destructive would also be unnatural To stop minding ones business and interfere with the bears fate involves him-her in stuff that was potentially dangerous it also means that he-her was still very immersed in satisfying an ego that wanted back patting They wanted to tell themselves they were "good" and so they are keeping themselves compelled to do stuff that they could have freed themselves of responsibility for. They are still looking at the world with pre-conceptions that there is good and evil, in this case they have decided to see bears as good, but they have no idea whether one of those bears will mangle someones child or not. And since bears eat things , they have done disservice to all the things those bears will be able to eat. If wu wei is a path to sageliness, or if it embodies sageliness then the behavior it would be promoting would not be furthering attatchments would not be perpetuating "good and evil" it would not be directing folks to take senseless risks. Instead it would be promoting and understanding that things live and die , the cycles go on, that there is no ultimate perspective to judge good and bad from. It suggests you make take actions like to keep yourself warm and fed , and that you can care for family and work but you do not have to do ill considered things to satisfy ego expectations. Stosh

One thing a person does have is the ability to emphasize or deemphasize motivations. Building upon that over time one can manipulate their motivations change the sequence of events. While each of us is dealt a hand of cards there are great differences in which way they are played. When a person is acting out of habit and is not consciously monitoring and molding their behavior it is then that they are sacrificing the free will they could have had...some folks think that is terriffic , give it a name, and promote it as bringing them peace. Stosh

If wu wei is a real thing, as in a state of being then it doesnt require anyone to be ,or read chinese to recognize it but their interpretation of what is written would be most pertinant that is , if there was concensus about what was meant which I dont believe there is, or if there was concensus about traditional paths which I haven seen. Words are at best ,vague agreed upon symbols Chinese and English speakers could both of course, contribute their opinion but many, would not be considered unbiased, and as Chuang tzu commented who would be able to act as arbiter between them? Doesnt the forum regarding TTC and Chuang tzu verify what I am saying? More specificity may be required , and in the presence of it resolutions may present themselves. Stosh

Its inherent to the task that yall will be emotionally invested in it ... Take it from a fire-rooster or look to the wisdom of the ancients bend ,flex ,let it go... or grip into it rigidly Stosh

Are you thinking of applying for it? Stosh

Good suggestion ,Ill post my last response to gatitos ppj

Just so you know, I really just want to hear-get this lesson I dont want to contend against it though Im sure it may-will look like that occasionally regarding the above #1 no problem ,agreed #2 yes useful concept, but it also somewhat dubious to call it 'real' it could be going forward or backward intermittent or be a side effect of spacial geometry etc without a reliable perspective -frame of reference you cant really say its fact fact but objectively it works the same for anyone as to 'nailing it ', I dont know your angle , so I cant respond #3 is difficult , I think your angle is that my observation is required for things to exist such as the 'sound of a tree falling' thing. If the existance of TREE is subjective,and therefore requires my participation then the TREE doesnt exist without my percieving-remembering The falling tree makes waves of vibrations but they in this scenario are considered unreal. Where is a thought before I think it? Hmmm I have to speculate that the thought is a potential thing that can happen ,its allowable within the format of The eternal Tao but it isnt manifest until I do the assembly of it. still in the scenario, the thing that I be is a manifestation and unreal Therefore the reality of 'identity ideas and material objects' is unreal manifestation of something real which is the format of Tao. Stosh

Ignore me completely if it makes the thing go!

Aww come on! give it a go! materialism would also be incorrect as it denies subjective reality Def "In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. In other words, matter is the only substance, and reality is identical with the actually occurring states of energy and matter." wikipedia Stosh

Id like to see your discussion continue but 1) there is someting which doesnt change The rules that the universe operates by never change the rules are inherent in the nature of space itself 2) Time is not actually linear it is progressive sequential and based on perspective if it exists ,as described generally. 3) that which is 'real' subjectively such as emotions is real in that sense that which is 'real' objectively such as material objects is real in that sense (though they can be as temporary as mirth) denying reality to either spectrum is inaccurate at best and saying all is unreal is also inaccurate because the term 'all' disallows discernment. I hope that my intrusion is helpful more than distracting Stosh PS Decibelle , are the lines in your post #9 related to the avatar next to them ? the words seem to fit ( nice poem?)

I dont speak the language and couldnt guess at translation accuracy ,, but I love english well and your translation is beautiful to mine ears.(and brain) Id buy your book If you write one. Stosh

I read and liked Aarons post too. (And others) Stosh

Before you get back to the main point , I gotta ask do you contend that the final line of this ( and other passages ) is the culminating aspect? It makes sense to me if thats the case line four bearing the greatest degree of freedom behaviors one two and three are also allowed under it But .. if line one was the culminating aspect of the lesson then lines two three and four are obviated Stosh

It would be quite unusual for the immatures to bully the adults , you sure they werent begging to be fed? Up here the cardinals are working on a second brood, (theres a nest outside the door) and they may be letting the first fend for itself. Stosh

I think that is a fair description of the 'side debate'the main thread spawns. Stosh