Stosh

We appear to be in good accord but I am not familiar with Zi Ran yet , Ill check it out. I kind of like the water metaphor a lot though the reason being that water , could be seen to 'express its 'inner nature' as a desire to find its level where it is, or in the depths of the earth (finds its peace) Otherwise it is passive to the circumstances around it. So it embodies a metaphor for ones natural motivations and delineates the limits of them. To animate the idea I would possibly rephrase it as maybe 'minding ones own business.' Staying "grounded " 'keeping it real' etc Stosh I found two definitions , one meaning 'let nature take its course' and the other 'to follow ones natural course without much struggle' Am I correct if I think you refer to the second concept? If it is the second then I like it well. could you elaborate on it.

sure is

Agreed When I mentitioned the use of the word 'is' ,I was wondering if it was unintentional due to the verbs difficult grammatical use,, or ,intentional due to alternative perspective. I see now that it is intentional. But I had to stop and think about the grammatical rules for "be and is" and am thinking that 'be' is used in reference to future contexts, while 'is' is used in terms of present context. Ex the thing will "be" in the future , versus the thing "is" in the present. The distinction you are making regarding the duality or non duality of the two terms (is -isnt versus be) is perhaps a false one to a reader, though you can intend it as such. Isn't is a contraction of 'is not' and although one in english does not use the contraction of "ben't" they can say 'be not' ,or , 'not be' The grammar of the terms can be irregular , but it doesnt signify a philosophical stance about duality in general usage. If you use that 'be' phrase in the above manner, in a book, the public will consider your grammar to be poor, and it will undermine your credibility unless you take the time to be very clear about the point you are trying to make. Hamlets great phrase "to be or not to be" sounds absolutely horrible spoken,, "to is or not to is" "to is or not to be" , or "to be or not to is". If I read any of those phrases in a book ,I would put the book down and never pick it up again. Stosh

Thanks, I get what you mean. But I differ from yourself, in the reaction that I feel appropriate regarding subjective illusion. Objective reality is objective truth and subjective reality is subjective truth I am willing to embrace both. I see no harm enjoying one's work or relationships or comforts In fact I see it as entirely terriffic, but .. I do see downsides to extreme indulgences or aceticism. As Melville put it, "each man sleeps in his own skin" and I read that as meaning we all, in the living part of our ongoing "stories" are individuals ( yes subjectively ) and during that time we write our individual fates. Thats great too. But it doesnt mean I need you , or you need me,to view things alike, (,in fact it means that we inevitably will see things unalike.) Wondering and pondering , are states of flux, the result of which is uncertain. I am ok with that uncertainty, I have no problem with states of gray. It is and always will be , that it is the person with whom one does not agree, who can point to a new direction of wisdom. Stosh

Or live by the river and endure the cold

True wisdom ,( if you prefer wall street to the woods )

I didnt know I was saying that, but I do agree that "there are no free lunches" I figured I was saying that finding the means to meaningfully relate to your students which is difficult and time consuming and frustrating often is still very fertile ground You already know the stuff, how interesting can that be compared to those who are in flux learning, and you learning of them. and while yes, you cant force ideas to come to them you can prepare the scene , point the way, watch share and celebrate. Stosh

You are missing out on the richest most rewarding part of the relationship that way Though it is easiest ,I admit. Stosh

Folks often operate using paradigms for their behavior Being dropped into a situation for which they have no paradigm opens them up to "leadership by example" because they want a workable paradigm Making a paradigm untenable or unpleasant can work too, as in bullying But folks also have multiple levels of paradigm some folks have a predisposition to copy authority some folks rebel toward it some folks respond to being able to confide or hear confidences other folks might open up so they can relate intimately there are lots of ways to approach "teaching" and each student is different the constant factor is adaptation of the message and the circumstance to the student. But understand ,that often folks hold on to their ideas and identities like grim death was upon them. (that includes teachers ) I know from my own limited teaching experiences that, when faced with blank expressions, I tend to fall into a cadence , like a carney , or baptist minister,, the ideas flow out from me as I hope to strike thate critical spot which opens the door,, and soon the class would become lost sleepy hypnotized yet unresponsive their brains close up and the time is wasted.. which is why I space my sentences in these posts such as I do (to avoid that overload) Stosh

I agreee with that heartily "Circumstance says if we are fit of body soul or even wit"

It is Refreshing to get some agreement some twenty years of knowing everyone disagrees with me toughened me about it but I try to keep that doorway open that someday I wont be the only dude in the sect As far as saying nothing goes, I may do a bit more of it now myself If even cd cant explain away the logical inconsistencies then I might as well stop looking for someone that could bring me "into the fold" of mainstream Taoism I dont look on Tao as superstition I see it as factual sociological etc just as other folks do look at any of the sciences It makes it real and "Present" for me I cant abide taking someones word for it just because they cant explain it Thats superstition and though it could be based in truth the truth is truth and superstition is for those who like it. And I Do think there is objective truth but it aint simple. "let nature take its course"? Sure , maybe thats the only point one person can derive from that entire work. I see other stuff and I am not busy trying to be a sage. There are those anecdotes about the virtues of being useless , not saying anything that can make a difference etc having no influence on things around you and I agree that sometimes its valid but then theres all those other times it is not valid Regarding CD I see each of us figuratively with a glass of filthy water in front of us which just WILL not settle Out I see the dirt in it and accept it He doesnt accept the dirt and so doesnt see it Either way it doesnt matter We both end up having to drink it Stosh

Agreed which is why I was pushing the point I think I will just give up on it altogether since, I dont think ,,,even your view ,, ( which is possibly the most developed I have seen, evidenced by virtue of your long study of the TTC ) is realistic. But to the extent that you live well with your wu wei, I wish you to flourish in it. Stosh

Sometimes doing nothing regarding something works out great Then again, whats the point of interacting with someone who does nothing? ( I'm not trying to confuse you with that, Im just trying to afford you flexibility in the future lest you become too gun-shy) Stosh

I dont know what was said then I might have shifted things But it may penetrate deeper to the heart of wu wei I contest the lightning is both active and passive and the only thing it could 'do' that did not affect anything else would be not to happen but in its absence The forest undergrowth would impede the norm and the eucalyptus would not regenerate One cannot break the rules of the great Tao nothing unnatural can happen and there is no point of noninfluence (wu wei -as described)

The question remains ,,what exactly that is , and if its possible.

A man is as natural as a lightningbolt

I think, I find myself agreeing with Vmarco and Gatito. That the life itself is the illusion Folks rarely actually worry about what they were before they were born when they sleep consider death in the same way but answering directly the initial question, LIVE well. So when it comes your time to unravel you fear it heartily If that is your wont. But every moment until then -Live! Where does the self go when myself sleeps deep? Does one not sigh relieved , welcome bed! , and oft begrudge the rising sun some few more winks. Relish I, both that drifting off and the stolen half-waked time before the clock jangles me to arise! Dreams themselves are not so sweet as these viewless borders are to lidded eyes. Stosh

That means his cat has 10 eyes!

Kind of like doing, but not doing? Your post still can affect the outcome It attests you interest. it insets a hiatus. It softens the situation. and reitterates my opinion that even your non-assertion affects the 'flow of events' (from what they would have been otherwise) thanks

The great tao doesnt recognize what harm is. A fire burns the forest we call it harm even as the eucalyptus seed germinate to perpetuate the forest All things we actively do are initialted by us He put on his gi He stood in opposition He knew the conflict was coming If he did not do those things and went home there would have been no conflict of wills If he had done that he would have contended without contending The one hand would have had to clap alone and he would have been victorious at keeping peace One interferes merely by existing Look at the trees of the forest competing for sunlight Eat my sandwich and you deprive me of it There is no position of non-interference all things are connected PS talking to the forum is not very much the same as talking to me Since my way is not the same things may play out differently If you took the stance , that the connections and interferences one presents are moot to gaining internal peace when one is not aware and intending of that fact, our opinions share a degree of similarity But in referring to manitous interference with her husband you negate that exception. She was unaware of the negative influence she might be having and therefore she should have remained at peace harmonious with the wu wei principle as it turned out there were negative reprecussions and you felt she had diverged from the prinicple (though unaware) So you have indicated ,what appears to be a negation of the idea that intent or awareness of her interference was a determining factor. Besides , there was clearly a chance that the things she was indicating could have been seen as helpful and nurturing. Omit all the interferences folks have with their mates and they have no relationships at all! Stosh

You stand in opposition to your opponent Adapt to his aggression as it is presented Then as some point you go about trying to defeat, at that moment you are taking assertive action. Though you took the path you believed easiest to defeat him, you had to abandon the idea of non-forcing the external to your own will.

Forgive my response here, you feel you have said the point, and its simple, so I should get it. But I dont, unless the idea is just to be passive. If I am passive though, what is it that I can do besides stare at a wall? I talked to a dude that said he practiced wu wei in his martial arts, how the heck can he manage that? unless it means to allow one to get ones butt kicked. He seemed to think wu wei was not thinking about what he was doing, and that is fine once you have already done the learning, worked out feasible responses, and then allow the responses to occur reactively. but walking around doing things out of habit,( while peaceful potentially ) doesnt seem like any path to 'enlightenment' ( I already have habits ) If I dont interfere with the things around me, I cant eat drive work etc I might as well be dead. I have no desire to remove myself from the earth to make space for everything else to go on without my interference. You post to this site, how does that jive with "Letting nature taking its course"? You are interfering with the course of events for every person who reads your posts. Presumably to their-my potential benefit, but it is still influencing things is it not? Have a nice weekend though , and I do appreciate the posts Stosh

I am not convinced many ,if any, folks do. (know what wu wei is) Sure folks think they do! no doubt about that! But with so many different definitions floating around, and the ultimate authorites being both dead and disputed for 2300 years and everybody either speaking in riddles or pointing at ancient chinese poetry, How would anyone know? I have my own ideas too , but they look very little like the ideas of the majority of folks here ( at least in reading between the lines ) One person I read, considered the Laozi as a sort of Rorshach blot test Nothing defined really , everyone coming up with their own interp based on how they are predisposed to see it, and to date , I havent seen anyone step up and describe in clinical and realistic fashion what the heck it is and then back it up with reference to the authors like one would interpreting say,, Moby Dick ,. ( unless it is hidden on some page I have yet to see) It is very disheartening . Stosh