Stosh

I like the beauties of words and deeds and things , theyre rich and satisfying, the Ugliness is just the other side of the coin unavoidable (I have heard) , but I can usually play that down to other sentiments like interest. As for the separate < Im confused by the paradox of your choice versus the phrase "All One" ?? But figure the tiny leaf of my own whim would be good enough to remind me I still remained distinct. So I'd say we were on the same page there. Stosh

Can I have a practice journal? Are there any constraints about what I could post in one ,if granted? And what does protected mean in reference to pit posts? Stosh

I thought the pit had a flag on it that said it was 'protected' and I was assuming that it meant that one might have an additional degree fo freedom regarding expression there, than on the more open floor, but I wanted to check on that ( I have a slight aversion to political correctness, Im thick skinned and sometimes would just like to speak plainly ) Your response seems to say I shouldnt take that as the way it is in the pit. Thats fine. Nevermind. And thanks for response.

I thought the pit had a flag on it that said it was 'protected' and I was assuming that it meant that one might have an additional degree fo freedom regarding expression there, than on the more open floor, but I wanted to check on that ( I have a slight aversion to political correctness, Im thick skinned and sometimes would just like to speak plainly ) Your response seems to say I shouldnt take that as the way it is in the pit. Thats fine. Nevermind. And thanks for response.

Starting with the premise that Lao wasnt advocating folks to sit around like vegetation, continuing with the idea that it would be just fine to hug your child also that the dude didnt care to have his fish dinner picked through also that he had the motivations to write things study language and philosophy and that you cant even lift your hand without willing it to rise because humans dont have enough instict to behave even like a reptile without our will and that human nature was to be valued and that its human nature to have SOME will and desires He MUST have at some point divided self defeating wills and desires from those which were enriching! For a non Taoist to be peaceful he needs to accept what life throws at him It would be wise to appreciate all his moments on the road to his goals rather than rely on the achievement of the goal itself because the "trip to Cancun may not be all that the Brochure said it would be" If this is the sentiment of Wu wei . Terriffic! The translation needs to accommodate it. I dont read any Chinese language especially 2300 yr old stuff, someone who CAN do that really should find the phraseology that makes the wisdom live again. It is not enough to translate the words without the meaning. I have been told by a speaker of both Japanese and Mandarin that translation to english is super difficult because the means by which MEANING is conveyed is so different. Sorry to get so maybe off track but novice folks like myself need the wise to clarify , not just repeat, because we cant do it all ourselves correctly.

Thanks, Well I was thinking that maybe not all things one tried to make be in the expected future fell into the same category. This may be in line with informers post. Buddha seemed to be ok with "middle path sorts of desires" if you know what I mean. Reasonable stuff within ones grasp. And I try to use that addage "Great minds think alike" So that line Im corrected on reminds me of "Keep your eyes on the prize"

Im not surprised to be corrected on that since I never did get the idea of being will-less Like a ouija board shuttle. "O wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us!" Stosh

I'm claiming no expertise at all here but I like the process you guys are using, could line six mean something along the lines of A man who sticks to his plan actualizes his will. And for line 8 A man that has lived strongly affects things beyond his death I feel presumptuous saying anything , but I find it a terriffic endeavor and so, wanted to stick my nose in

Thats a nice rich soliloquy, an emotionally wise consideration For myself I'd vary the theme just for variation to maybe "non-interference vs involvement" But as you can see, it wouldnt likely read smoothly There is a poet in you dude. Stosh

Ive never read you to be ,being an ass.. but I think we are all entitled to do so since it is so common Ive heard folks say that true enlightenment is a surrender that wu wei is a sort of surrender that accepting the will of god is surrender Would you care to say , if you think you will just have to wait for the next lifetime because it just aint in the cards during this one, to achieve that high level enlightenment folks seem to want to find?

Thanks, its a little 'R Frost" I think ,but I think it true too. I had been considering what one was left with once one abandoned judgements about things while trying to find inner peace The idea that one was left with nothing disturbed me I think it good to keep our whims and place a lot of emphasis on them I also think beauty and ugliness can stay I havent finished my list of illusions I prefer to keep so I am considering suggestions

I had a small whim nothing much really a leaf drifing on its own wind but followed it and it made all the difference

Youve mentioned that never surrendering thing several times so.. You want someting known about yourself on the subject And my curiositiy is aroused But I am just not understanding the significance Please spell it out for me. Stosh

Well if todays soldiers and police were much like general Tsun tsu and could plan their own path they could wisely avoid conflict, but todays police and soldiers specifically put themselves in the middle of conflicts with no real expectation of gain, and often suffer greatly the emotional scars of having to surround themselves with violence and cruelty,and indeed commit such acts sometimes. Evidence of the conflict they have invited is the high rates of suicide and divorce. They can be honored by the public at large for their sacrifices, as too can be -those called to serve by draft notice.. but they did not follow a path of peace,, Just like I did not follow a path to become a politician. I believe you yourself did some time in the military and so figure that one can come out just fine for it all..reasonably concluded I admit ,since soldiery is first and foremost about obedience and surrendering of ones own responsibility-will,, but statistically you cant say soldiery is an inherently peaceful and compassionate business without really playing fast and loose with the logic. Just my opinion Stosh

Humans bridge the worlds of spirit and earth Bodies decay and die Spirits exist and then are gone the slate is wiped clean Health of the body doesnt equate health of mind Health of spirit doesnt equate hale body Kids who get sick arent evil, are they? Its like the old protestant idea that wealth went to the virtuous, so if you were rich then you were righteous as well. Pooh!

Ok then go ahead and draw for me, what are the distinctions ? I may agree.

Fair point depending on the way you see the wording, I kind of expected that objection. Im trying to describe a person dropping their personal attachment to thinking they know what right and wrong should be or is (absolutely), not that one should be stumbling about like an idiot. Saddam Hussein did have plenty of loyalists, testimony to the sanction of a good part of his society! and in retrospect after the war, folks began to admit that he had been holding a country together , yes with brutality, but also supporting the status quo. The place nearly erupted into full scale civil war in his absence, many died after his displacement ,caused by moral folks trying to make the world a better place.(including Sunnis Shiites Pashtuns Americans etc!) Im not defending the brutality, I realize that morality can sometimes control men, but morality , the belief that one religion is better righter more godly leads just as often to sectarian violence. Saddam was sectarian, or exploited it, and it allowed his brutality to continue. Beyond abstract judgement is still compassion, you can love someone though you believe it is "wrong". Faiths , the formal seat of morality, have tons of blood on their hands. Dropping abstract moral judgement in a search of inner peace is what Lao-tsu was describing, natural compassions would still be untouched. That Saddam was "warped" to the extent that he did not sense compassion in the absence of abstract morality,is not reason to abandon the Tao of Lao. But if you cannot shake off your moral dualism , because it is an illusion you love, try Catholicism. I am not saying that with sarcasm But if beauty creates ugliness then its the distinctions one makes which bring dissatisfation about the way things are, and I dont see how a person can make such distinctions and find full acceptance, Catholicism leaves Judgement to God theoretically but a member can still have an absolute guide about rightness.

The eternal Tao has no bias Rightness and wrongness are subjective illusions Society judges too, and it is expedient to recognize that The human condition itself spawns morality but it is variable It is difficult to let go of the moral dualism It is a big part of our ego-superego Who are you without judgement? Know that, and acceptance of all that is, lies before you Does it not?

I like the attitude-approach a lot, nice and rational. I guess it represents what they call a 'short path' view. Which I like as well. Stosh

Poking a fish too much is said to spoil it

IMO the old structures for relating to one another, and the world in general, are breaking down ,and have been for a few "generations". They are being replaced by new structures though, and so the reasonable conclusion about it would be ,that as long as the basic needs are still existant ,,they will be met ,something around as well as ,or poorly as, they ever were. To me it looks like relationships are becoming less intimate, more transient. It looks like data gathering has become so specific that the broader view is not being seen. But whether lots of loose undemanding relationships is actually more or less prone to craziness,, I don't know. And whether broad understanding is even valuble in such a data specific society ,, I dont know that either. I look at the interactions of folks even here at this forum, and there looks like relatively little sustained conversation between pairs of individuals. Folks seem to post "out to the general airwaves" or there is unresolved disagreement which just sort-of 'peters out' into forgotten threads. Anyway , that is just the way it looks to me, but I dont know if that is for the better or worse,(or if it is even true.) Just my two cents, which I too, toss out to the general airwaves. So be it. Stosh

Very interesting Stosh

Geez you get up early!

Beautiful quote, ( But I cant endorse the avoiding 'loud and agressive persons' thing though, I know a few who have a great deal to offer, and often far more than most of the 'quiet and weenie',,, embracing them for who they are, and leaving them being that, strikes me as a better plan,,,but beautiful quote otherwise) Stosh

Thats what I am saying. and I agree entirely that personal experience is the best and only way to go once you are clear on the format of your understanding. As an aid to my own reeducation ..I wrote up my own considerations, from the perspective of 'what I wished someone else would have told me' Ill probably post them in the personal practice discussion area, where they can get attacked But I may not, since in my entire life I have never met a person who consistently agreed with me, so I figure "what is the point of it" but Im throwing the idea up in the air that you could do likewise ( gather your own wisdom together from your own perspective) Stosh