Stosh

Im thinking the drawback of pleasures are, that they continue to draw us away from a satisfied stance after the scent has faded or the cake is gone, not that we can't enjoy them at the moment... the trick would then be to let go of this draw and return to a basic satisfied stance. Enlightenment appears to be, (based on the signposts pointing to it, such as meditative focus)a recognition of the 'blank slate' nature we are born with (and probably bounce in and out of regularly- but do not recognize as such). I see no reason to expect that 'enlightenment' would be transformative, yet it might hold the potential to be so. I expect the offer it holds is presented in the perspective --that our conceptions are drawn with chalk. (on the blank slate) I also see no reason to think it inevitable that "enlightenment" would have to result in the experiencer ending up nicer kinder happier or more socially connected etc than they were beforehand. I verbally poked several Taoists recently , and have seen them poked , and statistically they appeared as ego centered intolerant angry and self harrassed ( or not) as anyone else. So I do not pursue the 'enlightenment' described, instead I look for the logic in the understanding of tao, and find the benefit of its wisdom rather reliable to the extent that I follow it. And although it was your topic that has produced some heat in the responses given, I don't really see it in your argument. Tao is, if nothing else ,ironic.

Im fine with your rambling Prefer it Rambling, the brother of whim, sister of spontenaity the child which remains when the super-ego is restrained often wholesome unguarded and true

Jumping in to wet my feet and greatly reduced..hopefully not out of place ,, Reciprocal to limitless potential, defined by its nature distinct, the ten thousand things take form. Similarly leadership is defined by its distinction from its source (the masses), and so pride in station is misplaced ,since it represents dimunition of all the rest of its initial potential.

Namaste Elliot and all. Its nice to see a forum such as this Thoughtful responses to difficult questions Broad and encompassing dialog Surprised such as I am I dont know where to begin ..Hi