Stosh

Chuang , was an intellectual adversary of Confucius , the errors abound in this here... one shouldn't equate any of this with the sentiments of Chuang himself. .... IMO

I think Confucius said something like that , Learn in advance by writing the insights about what will come, in case it works out?

Its not taoist logic to pose questions ,the answers to which one always argues.

Once again Confucius is presented as having it all wrong. Acting with fatalism , his behavior convinces the troops not to kill him then and there, even as he says things are out of his control.

Fine, if so, point it out in the text. If you cant, then the souce is outside the texts of the authors mentioned. The Op suggests that philosophical daoists need to deal with this meditation thing. Its not in the works in any clear or specific manner, thus philosophical daoism doesnt need to pay much attention to it regardless of nieye guys , shamanic mysticism or anyone elses expanded curriculum. It would take longer to describe hopscotch than was potentially spent on meditation. Chuang portrays Confucius as not even having a grasp of the stuff! I can show entire chapters expressly discussing how sagely people got so, like the butcher, or Robber Chih and its not by fasting the mind. Concept after logical construct what you might consider to approach wisdom. If you want to fast your mind, maybe you could take a restful stroll along the river, or do it the other way. But its just not central to Lao or Chuang or Confucius dao, as they described it , when they were alive speaking for themselves.

Yes but those are all wrong.

That could shed a helpful light against my claim, BUT, you gotta make the argument , on my phone searches are very cumbersome so its gotta be on yours.

SJ Being partially german, I must agree we are willing to supply additional text. Drinking milk is good for bones which I doubt is part of regular chi kung , and undermining everyone elses ambitions is handy in many contexts. So while I wont say youre incorrect... it still isnt a pesuasive argument that one can become a sage by eyelid watching... if youre saying that. To me the whole thing looks like an appeal to intellect , the exact opposite of unstructured examination.

Neiye again , a new perspective on it , but not simply going back to the source to see what he personally said. Jesus was a Hebrew and Christianity was not a separate thing at that point in time either , but one cannot ascribe that he believed everything the Pharisees did or that he eschewed everything they approved of . One supposes that his apostles were fairly correct in that some things were mutual and some were not. You have to get very close to the person and his direct associates and look at the missives to understand what is proper to assume.

If I understand correctly , your beliefs are more in line with a broader mystical tradition of what constitutes Daoism , which is not restricted to just your own belief package. Just as I was not raised Protestant , but Catholic ,though they did have have stuff in common, I cannot define for Protestants what their beliefs are supposed to be .

Maybe you have to stir fish soup gently, or butcher cows easily , but so far , if this is a significant practice trending a person on the road to sagehood , there's remarkably little said in that vein.

True , but my original post doesn't accommodate the shift in relationship. The Neiye authorship can have misunderstood what was said in the light of prevailing practice which was not espoused by Lao himself. This may be two hundred years later , all sorts of associations may be ascribed to Lao , which would make him exclaim "I never said that!"

Chapter four Chuang tzu Watson has Confucius saying thus "May- I ask what the fasting of the mind is?" Confucius said, "Make your will one! Don't listen with your ears, listen with your mind. No, don't listen with your mind, but listen with your spirit. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with recognition, but spirit is empty- and waits on all things. The Way gathers in emptiness alone. Emptiness is the fasting of the mind." Yen Hui said, "Before I heard this, I was certain that I was Hui. But now that I have heard it, there is no more Hui. Can this be called emptiness?" "That's all there is to it," said Confucius. "Now I will tell you. You may go and play in his bird cage, but never be moved by fame. If he listens, then sing; if not, keep still. Have no gate, no opening, 5 but make oneness your house and live with what cannot be avoided. Then you will be close to success. "It is easy to keep from walking; the hard thing is to walk without touching the ground. It is easy to cheat when you work for men, but hard to cheat when you work for Heaven. You have heard of flying with wings, but you have never heard of flying without wings. You have heard of the knowledge that knows, but you have never heard of the knowledge that does not know. Look into that closed room, the empty chamber where brightness is born! Fortune and blessing gather where there is stillness. But if you do not keep still - this is what is called sitting but racing around. 6 Let your ears and eyes communicate with what is inside, and put mind and knowledge on the outside. Then even gods and spirits will come to dwell, not to speak of men! This is the changing of the ten thousand things, the bond of Yu and Shun, the constant practice of Fu Hsi and Chi Ch'u.7 How much more should it be a rule for lesser men!" But this is Chuangs book , Confucius is not the hero , and so this is not here endorsed by either author !

Legge chapter three from terebess Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. He constantly (tries to) keep them without knowledge and without desire, and where there are those who have knowledge, to keep them from presuming to act (on it). When there is this abstinence from action, good order is universal. This is action suggested is done by a sage- King with the people under his rule, who one may presume are not sages. Therefore its not telling you you can become a sage by meditation.

The date of Neiye is uncertain , though it is a Taoist text , it is ascribed to various authors , Legalist ,Confucianist and Daoist , compilation may be about 300BC TTC dates to possibly 400BC , Lao possibly dates 605-531 BC and ,so Neiye is a later 'document' and one cannot assume Lao was in accord with things written after him. He never read it.

I don't think it says anywhere , in Lao or Chuang or Confucius work, that you can in fact , become a sage by (staring at your eyelids with your legs crossed type) meditation. Go and present the proof otherwise, it seems a pervasive idea.

A perfect dumpster is filled with everyone else's stuff.

different connotations of the 'N' word methinks.

The line between unnatural and natural is a fuzzy one . It's somewhere in between things being able to live according to their nature , (promoting their own welfare and so forth), and being pushed into crazy situations where the options are self destructive. To be crushed by always losing, trapped by being imprisoned, abused and not be able to escape, not be recognized or cared for , find personal meaning and so forth.. Never being allowed to be at peace , to rest easy , to be satisfied ,and function normally - that's -what this brand of unnatural means.

Yep, it should work like that , but I think Buddhists warn not to get carried away, and aim for equanimity, having gone thus far.

People are what they are just like the universe, one has to imagine a person who doesn't fit the mold to compare to , whoever THAT is , who is NOT subject to being compelled to find external meaning , disproves the rule ,, and thus it can only be the people who Do need to find that external meaning who are callable as absurd, not life itself. If Camus is not one of those needing external meaning , then he should know its people who are absurd , in their own eyes.

Yes , I would.

I don't think emptiness can do much staring. Mr Camus can present no comparison by which to conclude life absurd , nor that any particular life has a worth promotional of living other than ones self assessment. I wont label Nietzche anything , ,, broad labels are for gathering people under a single banner they don't really belong to.

I always figured it meant that if you looked critically into your soul, you wouldn't like what you thought of yourself and you would feel bad. I guess thats the problem with being too cryptic ,... Existence being pointless means it has no plan , there is no way to fail , no definition of bad , its freedom. ..of course,,, you can still be in the yoke of self imposed guilt.

Now you're getting it !