Stosh

The laws of nature are not so specific that they rule That you must do every deciscision you have ever made. You get to choose from a selection of possibilities. Why would the rules be different for you than me?

Pick up your hand.

Ironically that still means a decision was made , that until the brain did it , was not .

I don't think there's any container. That would already represent a dichotomy. The stuff within, and stuff not considered within. The yin and yang 'portions' Are the whole , and they aren't distinct either. Of the set of all potentials , something must be manifest , or there was no potential. So Being manifest allows a potential, and a potential allows being-ness to be manifest. You'd have to draw a snakey line out to the ends of the universe , so they just stop it short as "good enough to make the point " with a circle.

In the land of my ancestors , When a bowling enthusiast dies , it is said their spirit continues to inhabit the ball.

Yep , believe in free will do I . ( and from far back in the mysterious vacuum of space came the words " We are not amused. " ) Within the human mind , with its abstractions and inventions , there is a whole new set of potentials from which stuff can be made manifest , like phones and morality , taxes and song. .. Or songs about taxes sung on the phone

Yes I obey gravity , but that's not all I can do as a human , I can screw up, be self destructive , invent, dream , and so forth - its what makes me special. Yea, as demi-gods we be , and can spin round toss up our kilt and exclaim "Feast yer eyes Tao ! ";)

I personally choose chapter 44 as being directly explanatory.. Again from Terebess and Lin's T+D 44 Fame or the self, which is dearer? The self or wealth, which is greater? Gain or loss, which is more painful? Thus excessive love must lead to great spending Excessive hoarding must lead to heavy loss Knowing contentment avoids disgrace Knowing when to stop avoids danger Thus one can endure indefinitely Which do you hold more dear, fame or your true self? Which do you value more, your true self or material possessions? Which is more painful, gain or loss? Therefore we always pay a great price for excessive love And suffer deep loss for great accumulation. Knowing what is enough, you will not be humiliated. Knowing where to stop, you will not be imperiled And can be long-lasting. Gain or loss, which is worse? Excessive love implies excessive outlay. Immoderate accumulation implies heavy loss. Who knows contentment meets no shame. Who knows when to stop incurs no danger. Such long endure.

Ok , again from Terebess , Lin's translation and distillation 41 Higher people hear of the Tao They diligently practice it Average people hear of the Tao They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it Lower people hear of the Tao They laugh loudly at it If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao Therefore a proverb has the following: The clear Tao appears unclear The advancing Tao appears to retreat The smooth Tao appears uneven High virtue appears like a valley Great integrity appears like disgrace Encompassing virtue appears insufficient Building virtue appears inactive True substance appears inconstant The great square has no corners The great vessel is late in completion The great music is imperceptible in sound The great image has no form The Tao is hidden and nameless Yet it is only the Tao That excels in giving and completing everything But "not laughing" in itself is not sufficient to be called the Tao, and therefore it is said: The sparkling Tao seems dark Advancing in the Tao seems like regression. Settling into the Tao seems rough. True virtue is like a valley. The immaculate seems humble. Extensive virtue seems insufficient. Established virtue seems deceptive. The face of reality seems to change. The great square has no corners. Great ability takes a long time to perfect. Great sound is hard to hear. The great form has no shape. The Tao is hidden and nameless. This is exactly why the Tao is good at developing and perfecting. The true student hears of the Tao; h is diligent and practices it. The average student hears of it; sometimes he appears to be attentive, then again he is inattentive. The half hearted student hears of it; he loudly derides it. If it did not provoke ridicule it would not be worthy the name-Tao. Again there are those whose only care is phraseology. The brilliancy of the Tao is as obscurity; the advance of the Tao is as a retreat; the equality of the Tao is as inequality; the higher energy is as cosmic space; the greatest purity is as uncleanness; the widest virtue is as if insufficient; established virtue is as if furtive; the truest essence is as imperfection; the most perfect square is cornerless; the largest vessel is last completed; the loudest sound has fewest tones; the grandest conception is formless. The Tao is concealed and nameless, yet it is the Tao alone which excels in imparting and completing.

From Terebess, Lin's translation and distilation CH25 There is something formlessly created Born before Heaven and Earth So silent! So ethereal! Independent and changeless Circulating and ceaseless It can be regarded as the mother of the world I do not know its name Identifying it, I call it "Tao" Forced to describe it, I call it great Great means passing Passing means receding Receding means returning Therefore the Tao is great Heaven is great Earth is great The sovereign is also great There are four greats in the universe And the sovereign occupies one of them Humans follow the laws of Earth Earth follows the laws of Heaven Heaven follows the laws of Tao Tao follows the laws of nature There is something that is formless, shapeless and non-physical, and yet also complete and perfect. Whatever it is, this "thing" existed before the universe came into being. How silent, tranquil and still! How ethereal, empty and boundless! It is completely independent and self-sufficient. Its nature is eternal and unchanging. Its functions circulate within every level of existence without ever stopping. Because it is the source of all creation, we can consider it to be the mother of all things. I do not know its name; I do not even know that it has a name. In order to identify it, I reluctantly call it the arbitrary name "Tao." If I were forced to describe it, I would have to say it is great beyond compare. Being great, it is always in a state of transition. Being perpetually in motion, it seems to recede far away from us. Being far away, it returns again to us. This great circle is the nature of Tao. Therefore, the Tao is great. Heaven and Earth, being manifestations of the Tao, are also great. A leader who manifests the Tao, and can serve as an example for the people, is also great. He or she occupies one of the four aspects of greatness. The universe is an orchestrated symphony, where human beings follow the laws of the land in which they live. At a level above this, the Earth follows the laws of astronomy - the rules that govern the motions of heavenly bodies. The cosmos in turn follow the patterns of the Tao at a macroscopic level. Ultimately, the Tao itself follows natural laws, which arise from the Tao process. This underscores the self-sufficiency and self-completeness of the Tao.

No , tao , or natural order is not in everything humans do. Number one, is that we can be self destructive., come to crazy unsubstantiated conclusions, dream of things that don't exist , ignore our real situation , and operate as if we were in some other world. We heavily use ,and often rely on, abstractions which may or may not be true. It allows us to dominate the earth collectively , but at the same time, brings a lot of headache individually.

Spiritual embryo Huh?

Same story basically, and same suspension of disbelief is required of tje reader. So lemme highlight some things already exposed. The sage of this is not royalty. his actions are what determines his success. This sage is an idealized figure rather than a realistic one . He has his joy because he does his work well and doesnt make things any harder than it has to be. One need not be of this amazing facility, all one would have to do is put forth more effort sharpen the blade. Its not luck he learned it. So he learned to avoid the bones as much as he could, overcome difficulties, and take that which came of it . So none of this is mystical. He didnt rely on a faultless rule magically effective that one can just FOLLOW. Tao here suggests some effective attitudes rather than sit around doing nothing waiting for manna from heaven.. And the mattering of what tao has to say is that he does his thing , does it well, has peace and reward just playing his humble role as best he can. Wise stuff , not pie in the sky, after all.

I don't care for idealized analogies, it inherently says the analogy will fail and you have to abandon the philosophy being presented. Do the easy thing, and when you meet resistance , screw the philosophy : would mean the philosophy is of no use. Don't all the other butchers try to miss the bones? I know when I cut up a chicken, or fish , the knife is going to hit hard parts every time. This thread is on why one should 'follow' Tao, so far this story suggests one shouldn't plan to, unless they live on 'Big Rock Candy Mountain' .

The was a man in the town of Dun, and wherever he would go he would run , but he couldn't go up, and wouldn't go down , so he circled around in the sun.

While I see the point, ( no pun intended) , that's not actually how one butchers a cow, no knife bends like that, and this butcher greatly diminishes his options by always needing to meet no resistance.

I went through that entire thread this is all I could render... Sounds crazy, but the idea is to let the unconscious mind play with the discovered principles as it sees fit, but only after the rational mind has done all it could in figuring out what the principles actually are. This is what you think they advocated ? This is so far away from any the responses I thought might be put forward , I really just don't know what to say, other than I hugely disagree and that perhaps its too soon to see common ground. Carry on.

It reads to me , that you are not , convicted about what they were actually advocating, and that you somehow, have rendered that it must then be meaningless. Or what you have distilled, is that it must be meaningless. You are at center stage , whaddaya got?

Fine , but he said this "It's the same misunderstanding over and over again. Why would Lao tse and Chuang tse have recommended their own approach if it didn't really matter which way you follow anyhow?" and I said this "Wandelaar, what approach do you think they advocate? And what is it that doesn't or does matter anyhow? " And so I am thinking he possibly has no answer as to what Lao or Chuang were advocating , this would be a first step in understanding why one should follow Tao. (re: this postmodernism label , is he saying that Lao was a postmodernist in 300BCE ? ) And then , it may be , that he is obviating the -coming to a decision on it- rendering a premature verdict , that it has no meaning. If he does say what he thinks they advocate , potentially he could see why this might have meaning. But I cant tell him my opinion , and have it sink in.

Humor me.

Whats all this reticence about ? Theyre two easy peasy questions ?? Just hit em up like they come out of the blue and have nothing to do with this postmodernism - whatever that means.

Im going to guess ,to play along ,, earths magnetic field ,,, BUT ! recognize that I agree words are often required to provide a basis for the subtleties that one can see in images.

That's a fair position.

I think I get what you are protesting , but I need you to go through the motions of formulating an answer with the structure my question suggests. What do you think they advocate , and what is the mattering that you say it doesn't affect.

Wandelaar, what approach do you think they advocate? And what is it that doesnt or does matter anyhow?