Stosh

I always figured that there should be some kind of terminus to threads and abandoned ones esp. But I would just get voted against, folks seem to want to persist forever in the shrine of data storage, a wish for immortality.

You said you PRACTICE being kind, not BE nice, and tied being nice with lip service and victimhood. Whatever verbal twist might be in play I will accept ,that which you seem to intend, is meant. If in your tradition, a view of enlightenment undermines the spontaneous desire to be warm , since the self is suspect of persistance anyway.. you might perhaps feel that the best one can do is present the appearance of actually giving a shit about others , while pursuing detatchment or disentanglement with the delusioned.

No thanks. I see value in sincerity. I hold it high esteem. I can risk the kick in the pants often enough. And reserve falsity for those who earn it. If My actions are false to myself then it is not me being manifested, and if I am going to sustain against the trials which are presented , then at least I got to be manifested. If you have to go though a pretense , a sham , insincere deceit , in order to be kindly , then the truth is that you are not warmly disposed . Truly the world will not know the difference if you make it convincing, the wish to see each other in both favorable and unfavorable lights is strong.

If you ask me I think youre wasting your nice behavior if you dont enjoy it. Yes some people do distrust a lot. But that is still the same paradigm , they fear , so they consider the behavior untenable, because it doesnt feel safe. They expect a kick in the nuts.

Why do you think people want to see others being nice ? Then they feel its safe for them to be as well, and what happens when they see roughness? they try to protect themselves. Try being nice and gentle with someone and see if they dont tend to reciprocate. That would only happen if there is a motivation to be nicer then they usually act. Then they will bump up against their preconcieved notions of how far they can go before being a sucker or doormat or whatever ,which is taught by the slings and arrows of prior experience. They deem going so far as that ,as untenable.

The thing I was suggesting was that people would be nicer if they believed that it was a tenable thing to do.Thinking That they would not get a swift kick for being honest or explaining or just because they werent actually significant to others. Someone starts a thread with a question , and then never acknowledges the replies and so forth. When the reception is seen as insignificant ,as in a game , then the downside dwindles to nothing. But if you put big emphasis and attention on the conversation a snub becomes a big deal. Its an ironic blessing to be all wrapped up in yourself , because you will tend take the reactions of others lightly, casually, smoothly.

How mushy generous compassionate loving and selfless would one be, if it always worked out .? I imagine we would be as goofy as puppies.

No they dont, the difference is that humans can equate others with self ..sometimes.

You brought up the ' no fluttering of the sense doors ' that's not necessarily being completely open to sensory input , it can be seen as being entirely the opposite, and in the context of meditation to get to enlightenment , sensory input and idea generation are put on a shelf. Why must it be a game when there is a choice to do these things authentically, with the sort of engagement that enables you to partake of all seemingly mundane activities with total involvement, leaving no gaps nor venturing forth with hesitance? Because the whole point was to demonstrate the unreality at the heart of individual identity , so looking at the world afterward , you know you don't last forever as this meatbag , nor can you die, nor does one need to be stuck in bad reflexive habits , nor is there alone-ness nor does one need to vilify , nor must one never-forgive and so forth. This is why truth sets ye free, no magic needed , no presumptive conclusion that compassion must be an inevitable progression. I'm sure you see that most bums want to be even kinder gentler mushier than we are already , its just that exaggeration of this appears untenable. You say why 'must' it be game , but its really , that as a game , silly fears or mechanisms may finally be dropped, there's no reason why one cannot still be totally invested in their life, its just that the rules have become.. fungible.

Oh no , I am certain the 'senses' can be obviated , just as you say , but they Will intrude again , unless you go into a coma. It has been said that one can reasonably consider the retina , as an extension of the brain , with this in mind it should be clear that a direct feed into the processing areas of the brain could be hard to ignore. To maintain the body one must play the game of hunting up chow, and all the rest , this forces us to deal with the rest of the universe from the point of view of an individual , at some point. Though certainly you can open eyes and see nothing , listen and hear nothing , sniff and smell nothing, or abide and think nothing. Being forced by the physical need presents a problem of reconciling the world as a physical place with things in it ,minds with ideas in it , VS the lack of basis for considering these things as having external solidity. You may rest , but you Will get up again.

The Rinpoche would have made a good Daoist.

It makes sense , yes, as a belief , and I am comfortable that you have the better grasp of that tradition than I do. But any person can indulge in compassion , there's no need to experience this enlightenment to do that, and subsequent to introducing this new perspective one is Still compelled to maintain themselves within the corporeal world , ,,yes one may see life as more as a game or play , and yes they may take things with a grain of salt , and yes they may feel more freedom to pursue what is in their heart and yes they may extend the concern for self to others , but the impact of the senses , the conclusions drawn within the context of this living story ,still exert much of the weight they did before. Show me an apple and I will still see it as red , despite knowing this red color is a mental fabrication , and despite knowing the world is an interwoven field , and I will still judge whether it looks like one of the Rome apples I don't like , or Fuji , which I do,,, my taste buds will still convey apple, and not steak , to my mind.

While the enlightenment experience may shed light on the foundations of human mind , , I am thinking that it is the job of an enlightenment education ,might be said to shed light on the foundations of reality itself. Nor does understanding the false nature of self , guarantee that one will be compassionate , in fact , considering the world not to be 'real' can suggest that there is no need to consider others as having worth at all. One must go yet another step and re-see the mountains from the other side , whether that's recognized or not by the experiencer. (Sensing gravity does not unravel it's equation, and the equation, does not predict its distribution. . though they are related but who should care ? if this is not brought back to improving the world as it is experienced , illusions and all )

I never really agreed with the mirror proof of animals not thinking they exist. My cat quickly gathers that a shadow is of her own making, when she bats an object she doesn't appear to think it moved on its own, but if it did move on its own , she would jump. ( up , or at it) If she is against me on the couch , and I reach out and touch her before getting up, she is aware that I am aware of her, and stays in place. But if I go to get up without touching her , she looks to not get bumped or squashed , and hops out of the way. There's plenty of other things she does ,which to me seem , must indicate that she is aware that she exists , that she has effect, and that I am also aware of her. A person came over to me with their dog , I wasn't paying attention , when she mentioned the dog, I looked down and saw the dog ,( truly a Huge Giant headed pit bull.) but the dog was just wanting acknowledgement , and so was making the ' Hi pet me I am nice -face' , so I petted it , satisfied , the dog looked for the next thing to do. The dog wanted to relate , it didn't think I was inanimate. While there are mental leaps that some animals make , and others do not, such as , a dog will follow a pointing finger to find a snack , whereas the cat just manages to look both blank and confused. And I suspect understanding the effect of a mirror , when the data being presented is just So! much like another creature, overwhelms what they innately understand. I think they have minds , and emotions ,but just cant do some of our tricks.

Yep, that's how it appears to me , as well.

I read most of the analects, but finally I admitted to myself I was forcing myself to read really boring stuff. I think there is an important difference with daoism, that being the belief that men at heart are good , and that their essential nature will be asserted as such ,when the disturbances are alleviated. I think the Confucian view runs more along the lines that mens views on goodness are ..a blank slate, and unguided , behavior will be unpredictable. So I believe thqt Confucius feels that the thing to do is set an artficial standard so that man will be able to be good. Both feel that men have propensities which may be relied upon. .... dont ask for me to back that up, I dont remember what data I used to get there.

You possibly misunderstand me, I agree , that the physical world is outside the direct control of mind. but I claim that there is content in the mind which is not the direct result of the physical world. Colors do not exist. Wavelength exists. Color is an extrapolation from the data we get from the eye, The distinctions of color are an weighted averaged data presentation. related to the optic sensors behavior in response to real light, but wavelength is a continuum without distinctions like red or blue. Somehow a mind can direct our muscles to move. The energy is always there but it is subject to the mind , I conclude that mind can affect some aspect of matter, but not that mind has mechanical force. To be a troll is intending to be troublesome, otherwise one is just prompting interplay.

Data from a body is constrained by that which exists , you would encounter a wall and not be allowed to go forward.. but the body without mind is inert to arriving at conclusions, so the body cannot actually confirm or deny. You can have ideas sentiments for which there is no bodily confirmation. The mind can sometimes constrain itself. So that one acts within the limits imposed by the mind. So I would say No, if you were proposing that the body was required for the mind to move. And No again that the mind creates the actual reality which constrains our physical possibilities.

Awwwww

Going somewhere accurate , or inaccurate? pleasant or unpleasant ? scary or confirming?

The object, not existing without background ,, has no shape we can describe, it is without a model. The mind concludes shape. Shape is conjecture.Though the object has some bounds. Anyone might trip over a chair in a dark room , the reality of the chair intrudes upon the model we might have , that the room is empty because we see nothing in it. This model of what exists , is an object of mind So there is the object itself , independent of our mind, and a model ,which is an object of mind regarding that which is real, ( which may be inaccurate, because it is not the real thing, its just a model.) If a persons model appears to be accurate regarding the prediction of future events , future findings , then we say they know what they are talking about. If the model , does not appear to be accurate at predicting future events in a way which fits the general understanding of physics , then we say that it is a faulty model. We expect that the ball will be round, that if turned there will be another view of it , and so even when we cannot see the other side , our model suggests it still exists. That you feel insecure , that your model will be vindicated ( as in not being sure of the green flower) is accurate. The flower may be white. But all take the chance at being wrong, coming to conclusions, and making models.

Perhaps, as according to your OP, that after Acceptance , there is another step,Rejection. We may reject the story coming to an end, and so its not impetuousness which resets the cycle, but rather its a concession , that we want to live and do and be and create ,, to,,, write a story. Its the path which we want , not so much its conclusion. The end of pursuit in Buddhism is a completion , heaven, the lack of more to need to be doing , or reliving. The world moves beneath our feet , if all circumstances were identical there would be and end to change, an end to newness , the past would stretch out behind as well as forward , and there would be nothing to do . So we rebirth meaning cause connection time need beauty and all the rest of it. One may find some rest , in the condiment of unity , but there is a story to write.

IMO Chi, is an 'economic model' which assists in making decisions regarding how to allot ones intent and resources ( which are finite moment to moment) to find balance.

Spam

Oh ! Sure! solicit biased opinions , then decline to do likewise . Now I see