Stosh

He thinks that your authentic nature is not to have an identity , and there are expect-able consequences to that mindset. He thinks I feel the real world is a threat to my imagined self , and the cure is being humble. Humbleness equates to authenticity . So I have now , fairly summarized his words , in my own words, and therefore I have shown I understand his point? Right? similar enough that I can go on ? Alright. This is the problem , Everyone still has an ego identity ,everyone still has concerns about what is going to happen to them. Many people have concerns about others, and have to make decisions which have consequences. And people do value themselves as having worth. Acting humble when you really have no cause to be , other than to pretend your spirituality , is a lie, so he has twisted the meaning of authenticity to now indicate fake things. Humility now equates to being false, not authentic,,, unless you feel you are in fact worthless ( which is Still an ego position).

You're asking whats authentic to me? , well , I think anything one does , is an 'authentic' summary statement. It just doesn't seem to be any kind of guide. Do they need to be destroyed,, well at the time I felt I was standing up fairly for myself , Later I started wondering about this persons , personal life , the troubles they may be having , and the difficulty they may have with me simply standing strongly on my point. I really don't know what his situation is , his true feelings, or whether he feels I have been unfair ,or if he is even bothered , or if he is just thinking F you. That being said , my words were what they were , and they will have the effect that proceeds . Not knowing so much , I don't know whether I have done a thing I approve of or not. Respect has to bestowed , earning it, is another thing. How would I feel if the situation were reversed ? .. I could handle it any way it pivots , but I'm not sure others can. I cant expect everyone to be as thick skinned as me, or vilify everyone who isn't.

Don't count yourself so short , you know abstracts like numbers , and feelings and ideas for complex things like .. bunnies and donuts and music ( which are abstractions as well ) Try watching TV with your head dangling backward or sideways , your brain will just orient your visual scan to a familiar presentation. .. in a few minutes ,,,,,,,,,so picturing yourself upright isnt unusual.

Oh, agreed by me, that eyes have shape , , but it strikes me confusing , that one would consider the world flat, if they did not construe the three dimensions first. Without dimensions you don't have the two dimensions delineating a plane even. You might have a concept of now vs then, but thats not flatness , its nowness.

That for tapping into cavities and mountains, they might be shaped like long tentacles ?

Ummm, I'll pass on that then.

I have a splinter in my middle finger left hand , fix it please.

.. Yep ,difficult question there Just look at everybody jumpin in to explain how riding roughshod over peoples feelings isn't the result of this Chuangist 'authenticity'. Pleased to meet youHope you guessed my name, oh yeahBut what's confusing youIs just the nature of my game(Woo woo, who who) Just as every cop is a criminalAnd all the sinners saintsAs heads is tailsJust call me Lucifer'Cause I'm in need of some restraint(Who who, who who)

I found myself in a conflict , and I am not sure what to do , just to be 'authentic' would be to charge forward with blinkers on.No? .... Or would it be, to consider the situation and modify my behavior to a preexisting standard? Free from the concern that I am going to mow someone over, makes the equation simple, right ? , I just mow them down, crush their self esteem , burst the bubble, and let them deal with the internal conflict. Is that how it works? That's Chuangist?

I am gonna guess they all had a brew now and then. "Got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues And you know it don't come easy You don't have to shout or leap about You can even play them easy Peace, remember peace is how we make it Here within your reach If you're big enough to take it I don't ask for much, I only want your trust And you know it don't come easy And this love of mine keeps growing all the time And you know it don't come easy"

Stein sounds very 'Beer' to me, but anyway.. Other notable winners , The EU, B Obama , AL Gore , Yassir Arafat, Mother Theresa , The 14th Dalai Lama , M Gorbachev and the International Atomic Energy agency .

It is one of several judgements , it is not an absolute, that to go through trials and overcome adversity is always favorable. for ex , permutation of hexagram six says It does Not further one to cross the great river. If you got the one that says you should , then that is the advice offered, but the 'great river' could be to weather the dictators rule , or it could mean to flee. So I figure this is actually relegated back to being Your decision based on how You regard the situation. ( personally I dont know that the general panic sentiment is the wisest , people often make a big deal about events far over their heads, ,, it Could be good time to buy more land as prices drop, dunno. )

That would be nice , wouldn't it? I forget who I heard it from , but they made a point , that discipline and freedom are two sides of the same coin, I think it was related to learning to oil paint,,, knowing the skills and lessons of the great masters, helps a person eventually develop a style which isn't just a randomly acquired mess. And even then , when one has this new style , there are the rules of the style itself. Its OK either way ,whichever way you go, there is no plan you have to fulfill ,, no finish line you have to reach , and so you can never 'fail' to meet these ..( nothing left un-done since there is nothing needing to be done ) but still living and breathing ,, , you Can set goals like these, try things out , or just skip stuff , that literally is- You living. but Do recognize that these were options you set for yourself -so whatever comes of them ,, well ,, Thats just how things went with Rara this go-round. Its Your ball game Sir.

I predicted that

See, , you just dismissed the point I was making, because you think the view you hold , is the one you should stick with, and therefore the one that should rule your actions and future thoughts.

Everyone will usually say that its your right to be self sufficient , to not follow , to not trust in another more than onesself. There's a problem though , and that is .. one will tend to do and think tomorrow , what they did and thought yesterday, when they are left to their own judgement. The equal you can dismiss , simply for being an equal , Will be dismissed... 'whenever you feel like it' , and you will always feel like it.

You, I , don't and can't know that the teacher has it right , He can transfer a tradition , and you can feel accepted , part of things, validated. You can know that... eventually. And this is what people usually want. They want Tai Chi and Qi Gong , they want stories of immortals, retreats ,and good times. There's nothing wrong with any of that. There's nothing wrong either , with being primarily interested in the linguistics , philosophy , history poetry and culture. These are all , what I am calling 'forms', they are the flip side of the formless. (The formless, being a path you take toward your spiritual growth ). To exercise your spirit , you really need to do - physical things in the real world. It takes real personal power to quit bad habits , operate in , both , your own self interest , and others. But we can imagine literally anything , and do forget it just as easily. You can meditate till the cows come home , but as soon as you start moving again , meeting real resistance , that's when the tests begin and you find out if you have been learning anything when your eyes were closed. If your teacher , or text , is good , the world will start to fit you differently. Believing that , is called faith. in the mean time ,, we have entertainment

This may be the first time I have said the following, , Having a teacher is paramount IF you want the whole kit and kaboodle of tradition. I dont have one , and because of that I can never have the sense that I belong involved. I read lots of text and have my impressions, this in not the same. I see many differing mindsets, disagreements confusions uncertainties. It is easy to arrive at crazy conclusions, especially with these complex works. Its paradoxical that one wouldnt be able to pick the true masters ,unless you understood the material already. There is real value in the considerations presented which requires no tradition to validate, however, it is buried under thousands of years of change. Tradition can keep you on track, make you feel certainty, feel belonging and achievement. Dao, ,, well,, the truth of it is formless. ,, does that matter ? :-)

Dunno, but since generally the descriptions of the way are scaleable for humanity, nation states, social circles and individual constitutions,,, Your application is probably a fair fit.

I tend to lean in as well. But it doesnt really fit with the idea of changing people, I have this delusional paradigm that if you return rational energy, that it will promote the same in return. Which it doesnt. Good thread comments .

it depends on how hungry I am.

Yes, there's a reason why it should not be taken literally , its bad, insulting, stereotyping. Recognize , that if was taken literally , being very feminine , would mean that you were ...stupid lazy ugly useless greedy fat weak sick fickle confused,, etc and so forth. I had a mother, sisters, nieces , aunts , female friends and mates , and frankly , it's offensive to me, on their behalf , and I certainly don't think the description fits women any more than some men I know , also occasionally being, stupid lazy ugly useless and so forth. And if the sheer insult of it isnt enough, then you have the paradox that breast feeding, which is generating and transferring energies from a mother to a child would be 'masculine'. Or you would have to say that a man working to support his nursing wife was being 'feminine'. So its both insulting and stupid.

If you wanted to draw one of those examples out for a look-see, I'm game , but I really do think your perspective neatly encompasses well the perspectives which were being proposed. Self restraint Good , getting carried away with the indulgence Bad, Why ?, because you're getting carried away by it, just like you can be diverted by silly fears and misconceptions. Generalized hostility, Bad , Why? because you have to keep looking over your shoulder, and you'd really rather be getting along with folks, its stressful. .. its really a very smooth fit, even using natural creatures behaviors as a model. Well done

Yes, you did, but if you stick with your earlier answer , I figure that you feel that what is getting called virtue is just self determination. The word choice 'virtue' is entirely wrong in its connotation, and it should never have been used.The TTC is then potentially - the Classic book of self-determination for those who wish to indulge in their feminine side. And the Cz doesn't teach what virtue is, it is discussing the self-determination which Cz considers a good thing. Fine , I'll try to keep that in mind , and everyone else is just wrong. No biggie, I see it all the time. Its really a superb solution to so many issues. The Zz could be renamed the book of Freedom. and the many who have been duped by early western missionaries will finally be freed of their understandable confusion.

Combined, it reads to me, that virtue is any self directed action or restraint. That would be fine, but then, it covers everything other than compliance from the most antisocial self destructive error , to the unintended natural consequences we dont keep track of. So the lady leaving her dog in the 118 degree vehicle and tried running over the cop giving her a summons, was acting with virtue according to Cz.