Stosh

Tt, taking these things together, ,If I demonstrated the difference, I think you would consider it to be be just another ambiguous rendering from the text. I think the text ultimately was was written to make a point, and so I consider the alternatives red herrings. Why would the duke face the south? I imagine in a rulers court, traditional virtue is the norm, beauty and physical wholeness,homogenaity, considered to coincide with that. To be distinctive and to clearly show ones specialness is a threat to the ruler, even if it is great in virtue.. so virtue to the court is homogeneity and weak virtue elsewhere.

Father down in the other translation , there seems perhaps to be a return to the advice of Cz , it differs I think from that of Conf. If I can show that theres a difference , would you agree that Conf. is not being set up as a good example , but as a wrong one?

I was hoping you would find it easy to just say where you did or didnt agree , looking at the text you directed me , I found this part here "and to pay good heed to the accounts of the people concerned." So you think Conf. told the Duke not to pay attention to his people and just ignore them?being buddies with Conf instead? I don't in fact think Conf is being used as an alter ego , personally, I think he was being used to delineate some fine lines of distinction about the proper interp. of certain aspects of the dao Cz himself was promoting., I cant see why he would set Conf. as a proper example of a sage , Its like saying , " Here , Im going to write the philosophy of a wrong guy instead of telling you the right stuff." which doesnt make sense to do. To me. There is indeed a big difference to the presentations by the two translations, though.

Clarify for me Tt, is this an excerpt from Cz, and the subject is Confucius , and the Duke is feeling insecure, and this is an 'uncontested' passage. So you feel Cz is indeed promoting Confucius' idea of an ultimate man , doesn't that ride against the ordinary antagonistic stance between the two personages? and if this is from the Analects or something , why is the unease of the Duke 'not a potential detractor for one considering 'ultimate man' habits.

Right, Duke.So, one should therefore conclude that...what?This passage doesnt belong with the rest? Its been contaminated? Chuang has finally decided Confucius knows the right path? or that his own philosophy will fill you with self doubt?

So do y'all think Confucius is being promoted by this passage ? or is this passage showing that the advice of Confucius is problematic , (since the once secure and good ruler now is worrying about his ability to maintain authority and aloofness proper for kingship).

Geometry , math, groupings , nouns , , all abstractions. The specifics of what is the concrete embodiment of the abstraction is irrelevant. They are fabrications of mind, perfect and unchanging. In the west this subject was broached differently, and the principles of physics or math etc, were fancied the expressions "mind of God".

Y'mean like, When is a white horse ,not a horse? ,, When it's white! ,

Oh I get that , but money is the medium of exchange so somehow as custodian of something , you have to establish relative values of things like mountains and streams, wild deer or sage grouse. As it is, nothing has monetary value except if its part of the economic system , sold and bought to establish price,, and you have to build in accountability which goes beyond temporary ownership.

Well I guess that serves me appropriately for answering someones direct question, I't a habit I'll have to give up.

Theres no way to know, If they lose, theyll always say they were treated unfairly... that goes for anyone I guess.So im thinking they should monitor the water and sue the pants off someone if there Is any problem later. FIND a way to assess the ecological value of a waterway, if there isnt now, and do Everyone some good.Same idea as carbon footprint, you pay to repair what you destroy.

Great, we agree that there are laws,proper actions,and improper actions. We have courts ,and we have polls, to settle disagreements as to what will prevail. Beyond that, we have law enforcement, who did not machine gun down the protesters, the court did its job, voters did theirs, and the executive branch is doing its. All is as good as it gets.

No doubt it often does, but when common folks want jobs products and prosperity, they have to recognize that economic interests are valid considerations. I know its difficult to have to actually weigh what is the greatest good and to have to negotiate our values because we want cake in hand for later, and to eat it now too. And though Im just a peon , I do have investments , as many actually do .

I will never forget that night, that fateful night, when the underdog , slandered and bashed for years , was voted into office according to the cherished and defended laws of these American United States. I watched the various news organizations pundits, whom I had trusted to objectively give me honest unspun fact,, as the results came in.,,,, turned literally gray. Convinced they knew who would win, convinced they had kept their own bias in check, convinced that their own belifs had virtue ,,and those who didnt share those beliefs were just an unintelligent few bad actors set on evil and hatred. Those presumed kind hearted loving but defeated public souls , fired up by the media ,proceeded to disgrace us all by rampaging burning, and protesting against the validity of our own constitutional election process as If they were born to some failed foreign mob ruled state. I'll never forget that,.. and I foget an awful lot.

Pilgrim, may I ask by rephrasing,,that from a position of enjoying a subdued ego,, one considers mundane life with a lowered sense of ummm ,imperative? and to function in the normal world where things require prioritization and value judgements , you mostly drop out of that mode, play the game as if you were entirely convinced,,though you actually know better?

Well yes , ,,, starting at the end , we see that toeless thinks men to be at the mercy of the heavens regarding their virtue, and cant change that fate, He thinks Cz says the gods are indifferent other than to assign this fate. Toeless goes to see confucius thinking a 'great' man might have some sway over tthe gods or heavens and so, might help him in having more virtue, but confucius was indifferent about toeless virtue because he though he himself was just fated to being hot stuff. Cz thinks toeless could have instucted Conf. since the universe is indifferent to individual mens fate or virtue ,and sees it that virtue is in the hands of any , be they rich poor smart or simple - hence he says understanding the indifference of Dao would unshackle either of them.

It seems that this passage is jumbled, in either case, ,but taking the very last part as consistent , Toeless isn't any more freed than Confucius since they both are stuck on stuck on conventional preconceptions.

It seems almost everyone feels that tipping point sometime. But if I may, without intruding suggest that with time one may, instead of needing to walk away and take a break , may find themselves taking that break all the while. And what a worthwhile accomplishment that would be.

Actually , after those posts I spent quite a while considering this , I cant trump the rationale you're suggesting .. at this time.

That may be the accurate truth I dunno, I do get the idea that overdoing things , bringing headaches on oneself ,or ever grasping for the next dopamine fix, vaguely describes the problems of excess,, but getting Very specific, nothing much is necessary, flourishes of art , kind words , human connectedness , small luxuries , not a single post on here technically is "called for" --None of anything is called for! unless a person wants these things in their life. Without even these excesses and humble joys ,, I'm not sure one is having much fun in this go-round..They might..but it sounds sucky. That,... and , though some folks have said they somehow can wu wei through a day where they dont feel like they are making the decisions they act on,, I gotta think they still are making those decisions, the universe doesn't hand out assignments that I've ever heard, or pick sides. So, though I know this is an umm extraneous diversion , umm-- All of it is . .. I think.

Great, but moments don't call for anything.

Virtue?

All.

Courts allow you to hear the charges and plead as a matter of public record. Do you want your friends to be honest? and to be honest with them? or would you prefer to connive until you got the goods on 'em. Whether you've heard the philosophical value expressed doesn't seem to obviate your support for it. Can I take your post as a Yes? You DO think its better to be deceitful than to accuse someone ?.. If you do , then you agree with the note to self and I don't see what issue you need clarity on.

So its better to secretly hold people suspect in your mind , pretending you don't think so , and not give them the ability to defend themselves because you're keeping them fooled ? .. and then it must also be better to be wondering Exactly what I asked ,and fool everyone that they don't want to know... right ( note to self - accusation is worse than actual dishonesty)