Stosh

Yeah ,true.

So this view is of vulnerability as a door , ok whats on the other side of the door? strength to forgive? Id say the door leads to the virtue one would have, and called it humility. The subject is vulnerability, I see folks describing it as a virtue in and of itself, Im just correcting that misapprehension,,as I see it, I am not hung up, its just everyone who opposes me is wrong.

You too ,huh ? yeah its a bummer ,and if you want to fix that, you risk coming off preachy. May I suggest leaving them to their stuff and focus on whatever good is mixed in? Keeping yourself just a bit aloof where they lose their way so as not to play an unintending role in that? Forgive them everything! let em get away with murder, so to speak. Just dont get dragged down out of concern for them ,because thats misguided and you cant help if youre down in the dumps too. I of course dont know the particulars ,the hurdles, but I do know what that all is like in general too.

That could be true, but I figure most wouldnt see themselves in that light, so to give anyone the biggest benefit of a doubt, I didnt want to present that aspect as the way Id want to depict the relationship. Folks always seem to gravitate fastest to the most negative possibility and Id rather spin it, in the least negative light for that reason. In general I think folks here are intending well ,so Id rather err on that side.

Potentially, ,What word ? and why are you describing it as hung up?

If they want to be be considered a Them, then they seem to have convinced you. I agree with Reagan ,though humoring isnt the right word. Segregation is a problem you appear to be in favor of continuing. To not have it, those mental lines have to go away. I suppose the natives want to keep those lines too. If those lines were gone, what would you have left as argument other than to halt development of resources altogether, or agree with me.

If you can be secure with your own faults, accept them , accept your humanity, recognize that we are all muddling though a difficult life, and that perfection is an illusion one wont meet. Then one sees common ground everywhere ,in everyone, and you likewise can accept flaws in others rather than reject them as human beings. Feeling vulnerable ,having fears that you arent good enough, means you can think others arent good enough either! and you dont accept that in them or yourself.Thats why humility is the virtue, and vulnerability is the flaw due to a preserved illusion.

Lemme get this right, youre saying that you actually want to suffer, so you will be able to relate and have compassion? ... so if you alleviate your own or someone elses suffering..that would diminish their capacity to relate to you.. What if,,, you werent a suffering mess, and you helped them also not to be a suffering mess, could you not relate to them ,,with everybody happy satisfied and secure? By calling weakness a virtue, are you not then committed to promote weakness and vulnerability in the people around you? Im thinking you try to help others overcome their problems by relating your understanding from your experiences , and you consider this to be an act of virtue. Reducing someones vulnerability is an act of virtue , not encouraging weakness and illusions that promote suffering. Hiding ones foibles and bad experiences doesnt really make them go away, neither does disclosing them mean one is vulnerable to them , its the need to preserve the fiction which indicates a lack of acceptance,or humility . Ex Yes Ive screwed up at times , we all do, but no one is perfect, certainly not me. Nor do I expect anyone else to be perfect, and I dont reject you for your lack of perfection either.

That a product has a price, doent mean it doesnt mean the consumer gets no net benefit from it. If that was the case no one would buy anything. In this economy, money needs to circulate, meaning that goods and services change hands.Even If youre out of the immediate loop, and linked in on another one, that exchange gets to you. You are included you have a productive job. Its when a chunk of society is not linked in that theres poverty in that community. Preserving rules or a border which discourages integration into the economic community creates an impoverishment due to noninclusion. If you can largely self sustain on all levels , that can work to your advantage.. otherwise , youre an economic backwater.

You got the part about borders being mental constructs , great. How ,in your opinion, is the greater good preserved , by sending the pipeline though more valuable real estate, to satisfy the desires of Some people rather than others? When services are rendered, and money made, at lower cost, the tangible benefit to the consumer and provider, and all this kind of activity in the US is done by private hands. The gov has always had a mission to make it possible for business to be done, and the american people always have a stake in seeing to it that business can do its thing. The seminoles seem to like their Casinos, which operate according to rules made favorable by govt actions, and the public enjoys the service, I dont see a problem with that. Your just saying screw consumers, theyre asian , screw business, they are all geedy and dont give free stuff out, screw the people on adjacent lands ,screw americans they dont need businesses to run the economy.. the only thing that anyone should be concerned about is the tiny amount of footprint the pipline might have. Nobody should do anything, noone should have jobs or clean burning affordable natural gas!

my point revolves around whether there is a side that is right vs one thats wrong. Yeah convention suggests that there is a wrongness of transgressing rights bestowed. But it can be equally stated that theres a need for infrastructure, that regular americans have interests as well. It would be great if no impact was had anywhere, but there will be some. What folks think of as fair ,varies. I think that if they truly are american citizens then their responsibilities rights and laws should be the same as everyone elses and the liability to eminent domain based takings of Souix land would have the same valid rationale. ... That to provide for the common welfare, property rights can be abrogated. The effects on People should be the issue ALl the people impacted not just ones with particular skin tones or family associations..or even based on location .

I will narrow to the first point,, and If we cant reach concensus ,theres no point in moving to point two. Legal constructs, are mental fabrications. Whether they have consequences, depends upon the decision of someone to do something about what they consider a violation of the thing. One honors potentially the rights of others in an expectation that this honoring will likewise be done ,for onesself. The things Done ,actually happen, but the legal construct is essentially an agreement , and as such its a mental fabrication. Before Columbus, indians killed other indians over who got to use what land, so the same logic was used by Natives here , as was used by US troops. Sometimes they made treaties among themselves, but in the lack of ability to enforce ones interests,, those interests were abrogated, and eventually nobody was willing to try and overturn the loss. The new power ,becomes the owner, and the right to the land moves to the party that won it. The idea that lines on a map mean anything beyond ones power to defend that distinction, is really a modern convention.

Treaties , and rights are just mental constructs,, like racism. Americans can collectively choose whether or not to extend certain privileges or not. Might doesnt make right , it however IS the means by which a nation preserves its exclusivity to administer land. And it always has been. just like the Clovis people displaced and killed off the Kennebunk people of the new world before europeans got here.. and how they divided the land between themselves! I do get that you might think people of one skin color deserve special treatment, special regard, and that mental constructs like states have rights. It just takes too much effort to disabuse folks of all that. Just like its the norm to consider them as not having individual opinions which may not coincide withe the tribal conclusion. Youall might want to protect peoples rights, but these arent rights equal to Other american citizens. The Tribe isnt concerned as much with the welfare of everyone else, deeming infrastructure important, as it is with preventing use by people of other persuasions.

Humility is the antithesis of vulnerability. Don't agree? consider the fragility of dashed ego, crushed aspirations, and imagineered virtue. Comparatively ,Humility is an iron shirt. Therefore vulnerability is no virtue in itself. Ironically, once you find your iron shirt , it becomes safe to throw rocks at glass houses. And When one is crushed to humility , the hard core is found. Look at all one is compelled to do , to save face , feed aspirations and greed and so forth , vanity is a ring in the nose of a bull.

Agreed. and I need to hear what impact it would have on the reservation as well, Ive read they dont have much gainful employment , govt services and so forth which a pipeline might help more than hurt. Maybe give them the option to pay the cost difference of rerouting.

Do you consider the inhabitants of that land to be subject to american laws? Like labor laws. sales tax, can they vote in US elections? ,, to a degree its expected that they do , but they are exempted from some of the impositions that the rest of us have to sustain. They have special privileges , and whether one considers those to be just , is precisely the issue one should decide, and I think theres ample evidence to suggest that The US govt can indeed Do certain takings.. the issue resolves to whether its just - or legal. I can have sympathy for individuals, but not a state. I can deem what I feel is just , but not what is to be judged legal, which is determined in the court.

Property ownership in the US means one can use the land with exclusivity , but it doesn't mean that the US cannot override said ownership, just like you not having the right to exclude firefighters law enforcement officers and so forth. While within our own statutes the US can try to reimburse for this type of 'taking' it doesn't have to, for the general welfare. To me that land is within the US protected by US military and is subject to the laws of the US. Just like my own home would be , or yours for that matter. There are those who feel the situation is special for people of certain skin colors families traditions etc. But I favor 'equal before the law' and think its problematic to discriminate whether a group wants to be discriminated about or not.

if ,With the true nature of formed things being emptiness,,, then they would be ,in a way, endorsing an illusion they believed to be problematic. Im thinking.... Since logically there cannot be any thing which is false. Falsity being a mental projection at odds with what Does exist. To get the wording right, I think you have to say Myriad Phenomena, rather than 10000 things.

Really a good pair of questions ! I use the 10000 things,,thing all the time, and always presumed to a degree,, what it meant . I take it as each kind of thing having a type of nature , a character,, ice, animals, trees,, and also individuals. Me. you,etc . I dont know if a harness, an axle,a business ,taxes , beehives, words , ,would count. Im guessing Tao would classify as an adverb.thats to say, ,it depends on how one looks at the classifications fitting the phenomenon., But obviously there are a great deal more humans than That. And if one was selfless in the Buddhist sense , then the actual existence of the 10000 things would appear contraindicated.

Nah...Im of the opinion that craziness like that is an organic disorder , plain ol neurosis on the other hand is exaggeration of normal crazyness. ..If you know what I mean.

Is there something about the advice which would not scale down to advise regular people relative to one another ,, or farther yet down to a single persons internal dialogue ,,,( or even so- scale it up potentially for gods re: humanity.)? I think not and so don't consider this here ample evidence that the teachings pertain only to govt. Maybe thats somewhere else when we get there , please point it out to me, the non-scalable advice of the master, that is.

I recognize that.

Since there isn't much difference between what I said, and anyone else , ,and I didn't get a like even from the person asking for advice , I guess that means nobody likes me.

Back at perspectives again, you arent leaning forward or back ,and if I dont choose to argue the point either, Im thinking One has to start a new beginning or stare at the dead end.

Great, now with life death and the physical manifestations of dao basically resolved, ,, whats wrong with instant? Its low hanging fruit! biggest bang for the buck...