PGawley

Hi Rara, What I was trying to say is that Kajenx and ChiDragon have a fundamentally different understanding of what a sage is. I read this recently which kind of nailed it for me (from Taoism The Enduring Tradition - Russell Kirkland, p191 - The Cultivated Life). "Hence, the starting point for making our lives into what they should be is learning to discriminate between a fruitless existence - mere survival, then pointless death - on the one hand, and a form of true living on the other hand - living in accord with what really is, and engaging in a fruitful process of spiritual development. That learning process was never simply a matter of thinking certain thoughts about life and trying to put them into action [ChiDragon's and I think your position]. That approach would be as fruitless as living without regard for life's realities. Rather, the Taoist life consists in a process that is focused on a change in experiential awareness. [Kajenx's position]" It took me a long time to get this because it is so, so far away from the Western Judeo-Christian mindset that it may as well be from Jupiter. Kajenx has made another very good post about getting into this mode of experiential awareness and he is much further down this path I am. I believe that it is about interrupting consciousness; its our conscious mind that produces unhelpful illusions. In the past I've always tried to use my conscious mind and rationality to resolve a lot of live's problems - which is madness because ultimately the conscious mind is the source of most of these problems in the first place :-) P

ChiDragon, You've articulated yourself very well. Basically you and Kajenx have a very different understanding of what a sage is. I think that difference is at a very fundamental level. You can bat this back and forward a bit but I don't think there's any more to be said really. P

Kajenx - you've only gone and hit the nail on the head. P

Thanks for the posts Deci, very helpful.

Hi Jeff, I hadn't seen that thread before, thanks for pointing it out to me. Its very helpful. Regs P

Hi jeff, Can you tell us more about that? Or is it too personal? Perhaps you could open a new thread? Regards P

Hi jeff, So you have direct experience of someone who 'resides in the light'? Regs P

Hi Jeff, There's no point asking easy questions is there? Like any position of authority, the power that a teacher holds over a pupil is open to abuse. Its something everyone needs to be wary of. Regards P

Hi jeff, How do you seperate the wheat from the chaff (guru-wise) i.e. How do you know when you've found a guru? P

Thanks Deci, thats very helpful. Volume 2 of Cleary's 'The Taoist Classics' contains... Understanding Reality (Chang Po-Tuan with commentary by Liu I-Ming) The Inner Teachings of Taoism (Chang Po-Tuan with commentary by Liu I-Ming) The Book of Balance and Harmony (13th Century Anthology of the School of Complete Reality) Practical Taoism (a collection of quotations and practical explanations from the Northern School of Complete Reality) It also contains an excellent and very helpful foreward by Cleary. Its a nice bundle and I'd highly recommend it.

I'll keep digging,thank you. I added the ISBN number to my post. I was keen to know what you thought you the book (Awakening to the Tao) as I rate it very highly. Its very accesible, probably due to the fact that its relatively modern (18th CE). I agree it is a great primer. My reading is a loop of.... Awakening To The Tao The Secret of the Golden Flower [iSBN: 978-0-06-250193-6] and Volume 2 of Cleary's 'The Taoist Classics' [iSBN:978-1-57062-906-8] I also dip into Cleary's translation of 'The Art Of War' [iSBN: 0-87773-452-6] and his translation of 'The Taoist I Ching' [iSBN: 1-59030-260-5] with commentary by Lui-I-Ming. Having said that, reading is one thing, practice is another. Any advice on approach would be most welcome. Actually any advice on reading approach would be great i.e. how to read if you know what I mean.

Deci, Have you read 'Awakening to the Tao' [iSBN:1-59030-344-X] by Lui-i-ming, translated by Cleary? Can you update with above post with the ISBN numbers of your copies? Thanks P Edit: added ISBN number

A very instructive and helpful post. Thank you

Thanks Deci belle, your point on subtlety is very helpful. The subtle by its very nature is easy to miss! I'm currently studying Understanding Reality. I've barely scratched the surface but I'm already noticing benefits. I'll post questions and comments as I come across them. P

Thomas Cleary writes the following in the introduction to his translation of "Understanding Reality"... In sum, the aim of Complete Reality Taoism is to be a "real human being" rather than a willy-nilly product of socio-cultural accident, to be fully awake, autonomous, capable of exercising free will and of perceiving reality directly rather than through artificial constructs My understanding of Internal alchemy is the process of breaking down acquired conditioning (learnt behaviour/thought patterns) to see things as they really are (as much as that is possible). P