Practitioner

Does sleep paralysis and seeing ghosts and other things fit into here? I'm sure many of us have had the common experience of going to sleep and in the moments between consciousness and sleep being visited by something.. a cloud of mist, a ghost or an entity you could actually see there in your room while you could not move your body. Scary as hell, which is then why you struggle to move your body get away from it.

I will attest to the fact that some very strange powers can be attained through tenaga dalam training. I practiced tenaga dalam for several years. One very common test in tenaga dalam training is to alter the physical properties of an object through your energy. We used to take incandescent light bulbs and charge them with energy coming from the dantian (they acknowledge its existence as well) in order so that when we drop them from shoulder height onto very hard surfaces, the bulbs would bounce instead of shatter. The higher students would have contests in who could shatter ceramic tiles more with incandescent light bulbs they had charged with their chi, exhibit old-school style iron shirt feats and so on. There's are quite a few number of videos on YouTube. I will say that training in tenaga dalam systems do give results and are as valid a path as any. I will not say JC is the only master who is amazing in his country, there are many strong masters there. My former master was reputed to have performed a great many deal of things, including very JC-esque feats like lighting paper on fire with his energy, walking through a tunnel of fire unscathed, and also telekinetic stuff. Honestly, I have not seen these things in person myself, being that he is never in town and has all the training taught by proxy through higher ranked students, (he has an enormous school in Indonesia), but by this time I have seen and experienced more than enough to know by now that I shouldn't immediately brush off all the stories. All the stuff I've experienced or seen so far was just the small stuff as I was told. When I think about it, I've experienced some pretty crazy stuff that people would not believe. Everyone is all JC this- JC that.. if you aren't JC you arent shit! and so on, lol. but in truth there are dozens of high level masters around Indonesia. Once you folks become more acquainted to that area, you'll realize Java and Indonesia in general is a hotspot for all sorts of mystical systems, and Mo Pai isn't the only thing that exists over there despite what folks on the forum think. The particular standing form I was working with energized my third eye to the point where I could start seeing energy around other people. I would go to the school and see these balls of light around my teacher's heads all the time, and when we would practice they would light up with chi all over their hands. Fun times.

You completely miss the point. The point here is that he charged enormous unjustifiable fees as to what he was offering, and what he was offering at the time was not even related to what he was selling. So in short, people came to learn Mo Pai, he pulled the old bait and switch technique, and instead started teaching people XZG and other methods. The methods and other stuff were ok as practices, but that is not the point. The point is that people wanted to learn Mo Pai, and he didn't teach a single cent of it. XZG and all that other fluff regarded as his "foundation training" was not even closely related to the carrot he was dangling, and this fact is what continues to this day these things what you call "vitriolic gossip". Mo Pai is very simple, and Verdesi did not have to teach a handful of other different nonrelated practices to it, make people buy chi concoctions and the sort, when the entire practice could be taught in 10 minutes. I know someone who shelled out well over 1000$ on Verdesi tuition fees alone, and came back home very disappointed, still not learning what he wanted to. Now, I don't know your definition of "genuine seeker" is, but don't you think reputation is something to be considered when looking for a teacher, especially when big money is involved? Or do you just jump in the mud and then ask later why you've become dirty? The point being pushed here is if you get scammed, do you sit pretty and act like nothing happened? Or do you tell other people and save them the trouble? You say let people talk about the good but not about the bad. I say let people talk about both, because sometimes the truth isn't always pretty. If this dude's reputation precedes him, then let all the people who have something good to say about him come forth, and let people hear both sides and make their decisions.

Anything associated with Verdesi is completely worthless in my opinion, I would not touch it with a ten foot pole. People here already know all about him, and so people here know not to jump on another scheme of his, or anything even remotely related to him. You would've had better luck not mentioning anything regarding his name. His name around these parts is anathema. Verdesi is known around these parts as a sham and snake oil salesman, and nothing can be done to change his already tarnished reputation. People here at this forum dislike him, and that is putting it very mildly. So I doubt that people here will respond positively to this topic, unfortunate as it may be.

OMG i took an internet quiz, I am gonna go to Hell! Tulku, none of us here really care about what you have to say anymore. because you've proven time and time again that not only can you not hold up a conversation between two people, but that you're very screwed up inside with all the inconsistencies in your beliefs and behaviour. Just like how you never bother to listen or actually have an open conversation with any of us here, so do we not bother with you or your misguided idealism and extremist unbalanced views anymore. We all know who you are by now. You're undoubtedly the biggest troll on this site.

Ok Jox, I see now. I get it. Curiously their site is very impressive visually, but the registration section is very hard to find, and there seems to be no hard way to tell what are the articles you need to register before you can see them. Anyway, strangely enough, their school seems to have an utter disdain for sitting methods and sitting alchemy in general. They seem to be under the assumption that sitting down meditating somehow exhausts your energy and spirit, which I find hard to believe. On parts of their site they even go as far as to claim that even if people gain strange abilities and healing powers that their spirit is empty, and so on. I'm not very apt to believe that, but I guess that's how they teach people. It is a redundant part of their site in the fact that they denounce other methods of qigong and alchemy. Regarding their thoughts on sitting mediation, if I may quote their article (which is on the public part of their site): Link to the text Once again, I'm very skeptic that "sitting meditation leads to leaking of energy and death", having felt the benefits of practicing sitting meditation for a large part of my life. Perhaps I'm going to be a ghost immortal someday?

I think Jox probably has some relation to the Wu Liu Pai that he is not stating, being that the his post below my first one on this thread came directly from a section of the Wu Liu site that we aren't able to access, but he is. I clicked the link but said I wasn't a member. He has since then deleted it, which arouses my curiosity. ----------- Vortex, I believe that is precisely the whole point. We are not able to understand what their alchemy is until someone gets into their school and actually gives us a breakdown on it. I believe as well that the students undertake several oaths which one of them is probably silence as far as the actual methods. Yes, there is a lot of hype on their site regarding their system, achieving "immortality" etc, and how other systems are not as good, so on so forth. I wouldn't know what they are interested in hiding, but as to quote a former teacher of mine, "every chi group thinks their chi practice is the best". No one seems willing to actually come forth and show us what they have beyond their stories and the like. We really don't have much of an idea who these folks are or what their practices are like. I would love to hear more about their group and their system, but I guess time will tell.

LOL!!

Once again, echoing the points already mentioned by some here, I have to say the following: the difference between actually having a full dantian with yang chi spilling up your spine and moving up your orbit (the route of neigong) versus just using intention to try and start some kind of circulation is enormous. The difference in the palpability and power of the energy is enormous and so are the results. You cannot simply practice the real microcosmic orbit in the first place because of 1.) 99% of people do not even have a clear pathway for the higher energy to move through, and 2.) you actually need an abundance of energy that has been refined and "boiled" inside your dantien through extended periods of meditation in order to have any actual real substance moving though your pathways. Like a fellow said here before, without abundant energy it is definitely an "empty water wheel", a pathway or riverbed devoid of the living water which is supposed to flow through it. It is better to build the abundance of qi first and then work with that energy to remove blockages that it encounters. A blockage is a very palpable feeling if you have qi, and once again, it is more likely than not that if you don't have the energy, that you would not even be aware of these in the first place if you've just been doing a mental circulation with the imagination and without first developing a full and overflowing dantian. In short, I find it more or less a joke because people think that they can do this technique and just "move the chi" just through their intention without understanding the prior foundation techniques and methods that must be practiced and mastered. To jump to this stage without having first cultivated a full dantian is backwards to say the least. The foundation technique prior even before this technique of the orbit requires achieving a mental silence and concentration that most people do not even possess. Very few people can reach the proper level of foundation to begin with. I guess we have to blame the pop taoist literature that has caused both good and bad to happen over the last few decades as the source of this thought that you can all of a sudden just "practice the orbit". It is an error to say that you can practice this technique just with intention and most of all without a proper foundation. What I'm saying here is that course the yi is important, but it is pointless to disregard the fact that this is an advanced technique that requires an overabundance of qi, and even if you do have that qi, a properly free pathway for that energy to flow. This kind of alchemy, under the strict guidance of a teacher and dedicated training, can take months to open up, mostly longer, and it is not uncommon in the least for it to take years. This is why I do not condone piecing together different stuff you just read from books because beyond that path lies many pitfalls which you will fall through. You need a teacher to show you the way before you will actually have the skill and understanding to mix and match techniques. A beginner must find a master who can guide and teach him personally, because there are many many things that can happen, and that will scare a newbie trying to do these techniques without having someone to understand what the heck is going on. Once you awaken higher energy you can't play around anymore lest you do the wrong things. If you're interested in big league energy cultivation like this you need someone who's already inside that league. You will need a serious teacher. The chances for completing such alchemy like this without a teacher exists, but I will say that it is a low one.

I already tried to tell him that about Castaneda. I don't think you will get through either, as to quote him.. He seems to be one of these characters who will only have a one sided conversation.

There is a mysterious border between Yin and yang which is both yet, yet it is both neither. it can be described as the line that separates the yin from the yang. If I remember from earlier discussions it was called Taomiao. If you do a search here you may find more. Taomeow (namesake lol) can also surely expound on this if she reads this, or if someone mentions this to her. She's amazing at esoteric concepts like that and the shamanic history of Taoism.

You DO know Castaneda was a complete fraud don't you? Instead of liberating other people into greater awareness, he held expensive seminars for a completely made-up energy system and recruited women into a sex-slave cult of his. You might want to do a google search on that and check up a bit more on that. He used to have an honorary doctorate in Anthropology from the university he studied at, but I believe it was quickly revoked when they found out that his books were all made up and that the "Yaqui" shaman tradition was nothing like what he made it up to be, as most of the stories were just fabrications of his and not actually reflecting of their real culture.

This seems like a very interesting lineage. however, it seems the only place where they even teach people is in person and in Russia only. I'm not sure about China. Since this lineage is purportedly closer to the lineage and system that was practiced in "Taoist Yoga",for all we know they may have similar practices. I do like the particular emphasis they seem have on immortality, and as we all know doing and following only very specific kinds of alchemy for a very long time can this possibly be accomplished. It seems the staple of their system though is something called "Jiuyangshengong". What this is or how it is practiced I have no clue. I do know that their lineage is related to the one featured in Taoist Yoga but I do not know the particular system of alchemy they practice. They seem to want to keep all their secrets. I don't think they will teach anyone on a public forum like this or even in distance. On their website, they seem quick to denounce other methods saying that they don't cultivate the xing and ming properly, or cultivate the essential qi. but then again, i don't blame them, there are 9 million different kinds of qi practices and not all of them have lofty goals at the end of them.

She did. She takes trips every once in awhile to see him, even she think he's a real bona-fide master.

Mohist.

I find it amusing how this dude belittles and looks down on people who do not agree with his very extreme and one sided world views. I think its about time I grab myself some more popcorn.

In my opinion it's the only worthwhile thing worth cultivating. If you are like myself, that you consider yourself a lifelong practitioner of taoist meditation and neidan. All things come and pass, you may be able to develop some very peculiar and interesting things as a result of training, however, if the results of your training do not pass on beyond death and give you power into a new world, then it is just like all other temporary phenomena, and so what you gained in this life is also lost and taken away from you. To have an immortal body is to keep what you have, and to persist into time as a singular conscious entity free from the regular process of decay and reincarnation that happens with a regular human being. Immortality is not necessarily a physical one, although it is very true some Taoists believe in this for it is something passed down in Taoist scriptures. There are many kinds of immmortals. However, true immortality is reflected by the ability to choose and retain your conscious personality beyond the borders of what would be considered the passing of a normal human life. Some are real life people in flesh and blood who live much beyond the lifespan of a normal human life, others are ethereal beings of light who choose to disguise themselves in the illusion of a normal body. The important thing here is that their consciousness continues perpetuated and unfettered by the barriers that you hit with the normal process of life and death. Everywhere you look, people are taking their gift of consciousness for granted. People think that they will retain their characteristics of choice, free will and personality after death, which for all we know probably they will not. To attain immortality is to preserve the very precious gifts we have which would normally be exhausted upon death. This is important, because once you lose them, they're pretty much gone. If you're a hardcore alchemical practitioner, its probably the only thing worth chasing after because immortality bestows upon the person the ability to continue their cultivation beyond the normal years of a human life, allowing the immortal to achieve ever ascending heights not even closely accessible to normal human beings. Immortality is a stepping stone because it is almost impossible to refine oneself completely to the very highest ends of cultivation with the lifespan of one lifetime. You need more time. This kind of thing really is only for the few, not many people have the grace to know these kind of practices, and even fewer have the dedication to follow them through to the end. If you just want good health and a full long life and do not concern yourself with such ethereal matters, than you really have no need to chase after such arcane practices. You can simply practice more simple things geared to the goals that you have. There are many ways to the Tao, but not everyone has the good destiny or karma to become an immortal.

If you don't mind MPG, what schools are these? I probably know 1 or 2 of them but I just want to be sure to know what you were referring to.

Nope. What I mean is the dantien itself. Evidently it can be broken by doing Mo Pai training before 3 days of ejaculation are over. They seem to have this rule where you have to wait out 3 days after ejaculation before they can do training again. Seemingly that ejaculation will screw with your dantien and if you put energy into it before its ready it will crack. And if you do so happen break it you can never ever repair it, and you'll never progress in that sort of training ever again. Ask around any person who says they're doing Mo Pai here. They'll all tell you the same thing.

I think Scotty has a pretty valid point here, but the problem being is that how many schools do you know are headed by someone purported to be a real true immortal? and has done observable things to back it up? It is easier said than done sadly. if it were only so easy we all would be in these schools. The odds of seeing and talking much less learning from an immortal are scarce. So scarce you would not know one even if it stared you straight in the face.

Again, the only tradition as far as to my knowledge that says that you can "break" your dantien in any capacity is the Mo Pai. the only person replying to your topic in the longmen forums in MorePieGuy here in these forums. So maybe you could wait until teachers of the longmen actually say something to you, and see if they consider your problem to be real or help you. Again, you must have been doing Mo Pai if you think you can break your dantien. I have never read in any sort of cosmology or alchemical practice that is daoist that says anything about breaking a dantien. Even the well known longer teachers here such as Ya Mu have stated here before that they do not believe it can be broken. I read in one thread he even said that meditation after ejaculation was beneficial to recover immediately the energy you lost. In any capacity, doing the kind of training that you seem to be doing without having a master to be consistently in your physical presence can be very dangerous, with extreme pointed cultivation also comes extreme pointed (wanted or unwanted) results. In short, any person who's gonna purportedly teach you that sort of thing over the internet will not be able to fix you if you screw up, or even be able to notice if you are screwing up. Again, I think its not very convenient of you to not be associated with any tradition yet come running to them in all directions when you think something bad has happened.

The intro looks dope Sifu Gary. I'm immersed in my own system at the moment so I dont think I have the time to take up a new one.. but I can't wait to see what fellow bums think of it.

who the heck ever told you that you could crack your dantien?

Look, having experience with some tenaga dalam schools in Indonesia I will definitely testify that it is possible to gain large amounts of energy through standing breath compression exercises and little bits of meditation before and after. In the systems that I've trained in before the main focus was on the body rubbing and the breath compression. I have done this to the point of being able to pass my teacher's tests such as hardening an incandescent lightbulb with my chi so that when it is thrown at cement it does not break but bounces. I also know of the fiery heat that you get within deep meditation at the lower dantien, but not all systems work with it, and you dont have to actually have felt this to have energy to do some very wonderful things. Since I've experimented with different systems quite a bit so I speak from experience. It all has to do with the way your system works; not all of them are the same, so I don't believe that it is so easy to lump and judge them all according to one specific category.

Hello all. I have been a long time lurker on these forums but never bothered to post. I just guess that after keeping up with these forums so long the next logical step is to register in it. I look forward to chatting with you all, Practitioner