et-thoughts

Why try to do it when its just easier to just get it done and move on to better things to do... You are right... seeking to escape may be a fools quest that keep us bound without doing what need be done... If some folks only have their illusions and delusions lets help them change the nightmare into a divine dream and then help them bring about the dream into a divine reality... with the help and guidance of the divine... Humanity is part animal part spirit part mind and a bit more... and just need the right dance and music to play and learn

uote ... When someone writes a word it is used when somebody read it, it is used... two singular instances of using the word... now if the reader determines that the word means what the writer determined that word meant the reader gets what the writer sought to share... otherwise the reader just gets the meaning that the reader thinks to be... Yes, and another possibility is that when the underlying is already known, that meaning comes through the word(s), regardless of the word(s) chosen to convey. Quote ... as for this real we be in... I say we make it a wonderful place to be in and learn many wonderful lessons... and transcend the duality ... Indeed singularity/duality maps to Taoist Wu/Yo and wei would be action... I believe reality needs to shift from separate dualistic conception into an integrated singularity... The world faces global situations that require everyones cooperation... the contamination and radiation in one place affects and effects everything... it is time to realize that its not the in-group vs out group we are all one group ... and to sacrifice one is the sacrifice all and the benefit of one benefit it all... Although your ideas and intentions are good, as long as the thought is to "transcend the duality" rather than toincorporate "separate dualistic conception" into one's be-ing, what you wish for could never occur. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and if by "integrated singularity" you mean the integration of the "dual" and the "non-dual" into the unboundaried and simultaneous occurance of both, then we might be on the same page. (-: warm regards Glad you enjoyed reading these interchanges... I am glad you choose to participate... indeed the"... meaning comes through the word(s), regardless of the word(s) chosen to convey..."... both when the underlying is already known and when the underlying is unknown... IF one seeks to know... though If one seeks not to know... well its close to impossible for the meanings to get through... still the impossible becomes possible with the right friends around... I am wondering how best to share something regarding the notions of incorporate 'it' into one's be-ing... I suppose that a way would be through understanding the triunity meaning in communication. Well maybe a better way would be to use the notion of transcending limits ... zero-limits and infinite-limits point to the eternal while still using limiting concepts... when one has zero limits or infinite limits one in essence can do anything... I had written what follow for elaborating on the triunity meaning I leave it here ... it is done and may well probe useful... ( In my previous post I mentioned that "the absolute meaning of a word is relative to its use" and what you quoted ".. When someone writes a word it is used when somebody read it, it is used... two singular instances of using the word... now if the reader determines that the word means what the writer determined that word meant the reader gets what the writer sought to share..." Succinctly put in communication there are three meaning... the intended one, the perceived one and the shared one... sometimes when communication does take place the three are one and the same... and if one hold one one holds them all... sometimes when communication does NOT take place they are different... and depending on whats important one of them takes precedence... sometimes the important thing is what was intended... sometimes the important thing is what was perceived... and sometimes the important thing is what be shared... ) by "integrated singularity" I mean a point where 'what be' be 'what be'... those who know the truth can discern what is and what isn't but need not to do it... BTW the "dual" and the "non-dual" both remain within the dual just as the unboundaried talks about boundaries... what is, is ... what isn't, well it isn't ... the simultaneous occurance of both, is only possible when what isn't seeks to be what it isn't that is when it seeks to be what is (and/or seeks to make what is, not be what it is) We might be on the same page.... and not know it (-:

FWIIW in an interchange much like this one I realized that the absolute meaning of a word is relative to its use then it becomes fixed and a universal truth... of course each time we use a word we determine its singular meaning (usually it is in line with previous definitions though it may or may not be the case). The notion that what we do now is the beginning of an eternal event makes sense with other stuff I hold. When someone writes a word it is used when somebody read it, it is used... two singular instances of using the word... now if the reader determines that the word means what the writer determined that word meant the reader gets what the writer sought to share... otherwise the reader just gets the meaning that the reader thinks to be... The gate in the fence... is it there to invite people in or to show them the way out? well I suppose that depends on where the people be, what side of the fence they be at... Passing the doorway will free those bound and bound those free... those bound to understanding will be freed into the delusion of being free... while those free of understanding (under the delusion of being free) will be bound to the understanding that allows them to be bound to understanding... while somewhat free ... to accept the truth or reject it... Can one escape any time one wishes to do so? especially when one would never wish to do so... this is analogous to the idea that one can be saved any time one wishes ... say by repenting and seeking forgiveness ... with the slight inconvenience of always postponing doing it... besides the gate hardly leads anyone to escape... its like dreaming of waking up but just moving from one dream to a different one... In many reals we will have singularities in some there will be dualities... as for this real we be in... I say we make it a wonderful place to be in and learn many wonderful lessons... and transcend the duality Indeed singularity/duality maps to Taoist Wu/Yo and wei would be action... I believe reality needs to shift from separate dualistic conception into an integrated singularity... The world faces global situations that require everyones cooperation... the contamination and radiation in one place affects and effects everything... it is time to realize that its not the in-group vs out group we are all one group ... and to sacrifice one is the sacrifice all and the benefit of one benefit it all...

it be done... nothing that cannot be done, isn't done everything that is to be done is done... Everything that can be done has been done... Now its time once and for all to choose what will remain yes everything is possible ... its just that some possibilities remain as possibilities forevermore... some realities be done forevermore some possibilities never become nothing but possibilities what cannot be done may or may not be done... what can be done, may or may not be done... and may or may not be desirable to keep the sage knows when to act by doing and when to act by not doing what to keep and what to let go

can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

Why do it oneself when other will be glad to do it for one?

Hehehe hahahah ROTFLOL... considering those definitions it turns out that the absolutists isn't an absolutist and a relativist is who knows what... thanks for making me laugh in a good way... Indeed we have not defined what a "relativist" and an "absolutist" are... Personally I thought that it was rather evident ... and realizing a different possibility made me ROTFLOL... My understanding is that : The Absolutist = uses/hold/recognizes absolute truths-ideas-notions-beliefs - The Relativist = uses/hold/recognizes relative truths-ideas-notions-beliefs - For the absolutists there is a truth for the relativists theres isn't a truth (hey I just got an important insight a new understanding that I find quite useful and enriches what I hold... thanks for your participation and contributions). To be rather practical about this lets look at examples of statements and categorize them as absolute or relative... - Examples of absolute statements There is one truth There isn't one truth The truth is relative The truth isn't relative THE right way or no way Short definition I am a realist Reality (I just realized that there are some singular statements that may be better to categorize differently like 'What be' and maybe short definition) - Examples of relative statements - My understanding of what you are saying here is... - your understanding is - My way or no way. - That depends on what one believe holds - whatever works - illusion I see that your response following the statement I made goes of into a different direction than what I intended: - if there is any consolation both the noble and the charlatan use the slogan "I tell the truth"... sought to expose the fact that the same statement can be true if the noble uses it and can be false if the charlatan uses it... I was indirectly pointing out that the slogan "be all you can be" could be this or that depending on who used it. sometimes its impossible to know if the statement is true or false this or that... and that its a bit irrelevant what it happened to be so long as what follows makes it be congruent with the statement... Another example that I could had used is: "May you reap abundantly what they sow"... It could be a blessing or a curse! Here it depends on the recipient... You certainly are correct that "If anyone takes the time to tell me what they are about to say is the truth" It would tend to flag the statement and make some wonder about the veracity of that and other statements... Sure some people will lie every chance they get... just as some people will tell the truth every chance they get... telling their stories! The stories each tells, tell quite a bit about the storyteller... Rather than just assume something to be, I wonder and ponder considering it being the case and it being something else... looking for the singular path that in every case I choose to embrace...be it a dream be it for real always choose the better way to be... be it right be it wrong always validate what it be... Though nowadays I am tending to always ensure what be right be right... and cultivating what be right...

WHEN Being born is the beginning of death and Death is the end of being born THEN Life as we know it corresponds to death and after the end of being born one lives on Death was born with the first death death dies with the last death life precedes death and transcend it by being before-during-and-after it Being born is the continuation of a life cycle and moving on is also the continuation of a life cycle even when it has a beginning and an eternal duration.

As counter intuitive as it is... the absolutist turns out to have more freedom... than the relativist... look at it this way the absolutist can always choose and become both an absolutist and a relativist at the same time by choosing that the absolute truth be the relative truth... where as the relativist can only become both when 'it just happens that' what they chosen as the relative truth just happens to be the absolute truth... evidently ALWAYS being able to be both is better (provides more freedom) than just being able to be both on that single case that is just happens to be... Note how the duality of being relativist-or-absolutist just vanishes and ceases to be relevant when one be both at the same time... The problem with right and wrong stems from what be wrong... if it was all right then evidently there would not be a problem ... Besides have you noticed how relativists resort to absolutes all of the time... ok not all of the time but quite frequently... "Absolutely --- THESE ARE RELATIVES, NOT ABSOLUTES"... for clarity sake I am just providing a personal example without getting personal about it... I do hope you see. I to am a realist... and find hilarious and absurd the self-contradictory ways of the relativists especially when around an absolutist... when the relativists denies the absolutists ways they deny being a relativist by rejecting a particular relative position and when the relativists accepts the absolutists ways they 'deny'* being a relativist. Again note how the duality of denial-acceptance becomes irrelevant ... whatever is done the result is the same... it would be like regardless of the path followed one reaches the same destination... You are right the army does use the slogan "Be all that you can be"... if there is any consolation both the noble and the charlatan use the slogan "I tell the truth"... Now some individuals do need the discipline and good practices of the army...

If the reality of the matter was that it was just an individuals illusion without repercussions elsewhere then sure its their illusion... though when their illusion has real repercussions elsewhere then its a whole different matter I seek to expose what be the absolute truth and embrace the absolute better possibility... it matters little who happens to be right or wrong, what does matter is realizing the absolute truth and the absolute better possibility... that each may embrace it... 'Which of those possibilities will come to be is the mystery'... until one knows what be and then the mystery isn't a mystery any more... BTW you did not answer my question about which is freer an absolutist or a relativist... Yesterday I realized that its only natural that those who are wrong and cultivate what be wrong would tell me that I am wrong when I am right... That should help me remain calm and at peace... while seeking to cultivate what be right ... The story about the mountain and the stonecutter succinctly put... - the powerful spirit who lived in the mountain observed a stonecutter day after day be a stonecutter - At first the stonecutter was happy with being a stonecutter - One day the stonecutter saw something and became sad because the stonecutter wanted be more powerful - this idea drove a stake through the stonecutter's heart and induced a deep depression - The stonecutter no longer wanted to be a stonecutter, the stonecutter wanted to be something else - The powerful spirit who lived in the mountain decided to intervene and grant the stonecutter's desire - Overnight during the sleep the powerful spirit grants the stonecutter's wish... The story now continues with the stonecutter being a general... the same 7 steps happen again with the new context The story then continues with the general becoming a the king... the same 7 steps happen again and again the king turns into the sun... because the sun is more powerful than the king who is more powerful than the general who is more powerful than the stonecutter... the sun wishes to turn into the clouds because the clouds are more powerful than the sun ... then the clouds turn into the wind because the wind moves the clouds...finally the wind wishes to become the mountain because its more powerful than the wind... the powerful spirit says that the mountain is its home and to grant the wish would have to leave the place for good never to return ... the wind insist on becoming the mountain... so that night the spirit turns the wind into the maintain and leaves... the mountain is awaken by the sting of a stonecutter's chisel... I hope you see the somewhat circular nature... how it deals with seeking to be more, only to realize that the quest was a fools errand ... moral be all you can be wherever you be ... rather than desiring to be elsewhere... Of course I left out many many details that I believe you can fill them in...

Lets me try to understand what you are stating--- another way to put what you said be that 'what is' be just as real as 'what isn't'; the Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery; the reality is just as real as the illusion... If neither existed sure both would be the same and when both exists the reality and the illusion both be real possibilities though only what be real be both a possibility and a reality ... its like the absolutist and the relativist... which be freer ? the the reality is a manifested possiblity... where as the mystery is a possibility that may or may not be... The story I referred is somewhat circular in nature... and deals with seeking to be more, only to realize that the quest was a fools errand ... moral be all you can be wherever one be ... rather than desiring to be elsewhere...

yeup - there are those who believe that there is no mountain even when the mountain be everywhere one be... 'touche' -- used as an acknowledgment during a dialogue of a good or clever point made to call attention to the point made Heck some here believe in the notion of 'not being' as a way of being ... rather than just being... In a way thats why I came here to understand and help those here to understand. duality keeps many from realizing the singular experience of being... Please remind me to share the story of the mountain and stone cutter... latter... maybe you even already know it...

The duality thing there was sort of included as a courtesy for those who think that 'what is not the way to go' be 'the way to go'... further into the path each realizes the truth... some will accept it and do what needs doing and some will reject the truth and embrace a delusion... there is only one path with infinite possibilities... in a more simplified way, the way actually has just one direction, there is only one way to the mountain top... its the one one follows...in the end everyone reaches the mountain top some know and realize it and some don't... some take almost forever to get there and some get there in a flash, a blink of an eye, a single thought and wham shabam they are there... Imagine if I had stated "there is only one path with infinite possibilities... in a more simplified way, the way has one direction to the mountain top... those who know it needn't be told and those who ignore it don't believe when told... One can know with certainty the way to go even while uncertain as to who tells the truth and who lies... In a way the lesson is to choose right independent of knowing or not knowing... To do independent of doing or not doing ... if one embraces the truth, one eventually gets there, to know what be right one choose to be bound to truth... those who choose to be bound to the delusion of freedom remain imprisoned in the delusion... remember that saying - the truth sets you free... well when one chooses to bind oneself to the truth one discover that one can do just about anything worth doing... and though forced to choose can is free to choose ... this is related to zero-limits and infinite limits...

Stosh The initial thought I had was that a possibility is complete regardless of the possibility remaining as just that a possibility... I thought that potential for equated to a possibility... Then I had a different thought, somewhat on the lines of : 'the validity of the statement'... which incidentally can denote any level of validity (say from nil, passing through incomplete, all the way to complete ) :-) With that in mind disagreements fall within the agreements class (nil agreement being full disagreement and nil disagreement being full agreement)... Why do you claim that "potential for agreement" is incomplete rather than complete? This sort of reminds me of an interchange which also sought to explore 'what be the case of'. After much debate I came to the surprising realization that 'we thought that we disagreed when we actually agreed almost 100%". It was sort of funny because in that interchange we both agreed that one was right and one was wrong ... we even agreed that the statement "I am the one right and you be the one wrong" was 100% valid. We even agreed that 'I meant I' and 'you meant you'. From there I walked away with the insight that when I am told that I am wrong by someone who is wrong its just the natural thing... (wow something just clicked in me) When someone who is wrong tells me that I am right its indeterminate wether its because they are recognizing the truth I expressed or because what I expressed actually is wrong... BTW you said "If there was a way to (x) the event would be quite noteworthy" I think there be a way to (x) ... what would be really noteworthy would be to discover the way to (x) :-) dust in the wind, with a conscience and mind and feelings and a bit more, that knows, lives, experiences, transcends and more. Dust that goes everywhere, including where there be no wind at all. In a way energy is like the wind that moves particles about... though living light particles destined to be more than just particles or waves... you each and all have a wonderfull weekend

Where do we go from here? wherever we go ... there you go , there I go... and we may even end up somewhere together! I had composed quite a response and had almost finished it when inadvertedly changed this webpage and just lost it . Now I just do not feel like recreating the whole thing here... I will say this: there is only one path with infinite possibilities... in a more simplified way, the way has two directions though there is only one way to the mountain top... The question you pose is asked at each stage and instant... when alone when with other at home at a restaurant in agreements and in disagreements and when playing and resting... and a bit more

To interject a possibility .... there be an energy flow, the notion of a point being positive or negative and they creating the flow of energy is an illusion/delusion... the flow of energy exists, the entropy, and always flows in a given direction... The Living preserve their order by taking from their surroundings 'nutrients', rearranging them and returning to their surroundings the stuff in a different form, with an extra amount of 'enriched' entropy. That explains the comment John said about reality working by adding to it... BTW the energy flow of the original singularity creates an ever expanding universe of stuff ... Hey thanks... I find this thread quite helpful... keep it going...

Knowing it all needn't lead us to an empty life... it could lead us to a fulfilling life... what actually happens is a bit .... convoluted ... wo wei

You are right "'What be?' question must be answered by each individual..." because ... individuals wouldn't believe the answer from anyone else :-)! "What be" be what be and what varies is what individuals perceive to be... I was/am fortunate to have dyslexia which provides all sort of opportunities... and sort of has forces me to wonder and ponder over the validity of what I perceive and develop agile coping skill to get it right (and correct it when I get it wrong)... Most people I know have a real hard time accepting that they didn't get it right... (and got it wrong)... Its a real hard blow to their egos... which they prefer to avoid it at all possible... thus they embrace a delusional fantasy... To some a minuscule change tumbles their house of cards (their held beliefs can't stand it)... Say something like the notion of the earth not being the center of the universe ... because it revolves around the sun... Dialoguing about the singularity/duality question and the understanding each has is a means for each to clarify what they hold and maybe discover something new ... personally I believe we can know 'what be' by knowing 'what be' that is one can know 'x' by knowing 'x'! Knowing 'y' hardly implies that one knows 'x' ... it implies that one knows 'y' ... you probably know the story about... -giving someone a fish to eat vs teaching someone how to catch a fish... though do you know the rest of the story... - it involves a bit more... including caring for the fish by abundantly cultivating them to always have fish to eat... This world now is entering a stage where each has to tend and cultivate the land, air, water, fire and more...

Marblehead, Each propagates quite a bit of stuff :-) ... the notions of telling 'my' truth and 'the' truth as you sort of mentioned requires that We periodically corroborate that our truths correspond to the truths ( or recognize if our truths are nothing but illusions and/or delusions). From what I understand this thread objective seek to jointly explore and determine "what be": be it a singularity be it a duality ... AND the natural manner of being. "Are there or are there no "ultimate truths"? The statement "there be an ultimate truth" would be true even if there was just one ultimate truth that being that there be one ultimate truth... the absolute statement "there are no ultimate truths" would be paradoxically self contradictory and thus would be false! I do know that life is that way... "If our paths happen to merge (or more appropriately when they happen to merge) we might walk together for a while." Sure our path might never merge or cross though considering eternity we are bound to merge or cross sooner or later and eventually decide if to walk together for a while dialoguing or silently... :-) We may even wonder and ponder over the fact of who's path it be... your path my path or just a path we happen to both be on at that singular moment in time and space... For me today is quite a significant day... as I mention earlier : its irrelevant whether the statement (say "I tell the truth") be true or false, what is relevant is to make it be true from this point on ... in a way the difference between a deception and a vision... resides in that one accepts what be while still claiming what will be but isn't vs rejecting what be to maintain the deception of what isn't going to be...

It's about living ... Shakespeare's 'to be or not to be' ahin't the question it be how to be... some cultivate the dark, voids, death, annihilation - lies some cultivate the light, being, life, propagation - truth of course everyone claims to tell the truth... the words "I tell the truth" are true or false depending on who utters them! the key is to followthrough and congruently doing what is claimed... from the point of making the declaration forward ...so its irrelevant whether it be true or false that "I tell the truth" when I make the statement what is relevant is that from that point on I only tell the truth... and make it be true....

ChiDragon, I believe we do stand on a common ground seeking to share an enriching adventure together and a bit more... I seek to be courteous and respectful and sometimes a bit playful ... always seeking what be better for each and all. What I present is what I think and see and I do seek to explain how I see things... and understand how other see things in hopes of jointly discovering the better things... be them from you, others, me or the process. I do hope we stand on a common ground... and that if/when the ground vanishes from beneath we manage to remain standing and dialoguing realizing that the ground upon which we stood did not support us . Kind of like when swimming in the ocean ... when the ground below is 3 meters and suddenly drops off by 3000 meters it matters little we keep on swimming the same... Of course some passes requiring that one walk on water and swim in air... some gateways will only allow certain travelers to traverse them... hopefully that too will be of little relevance... as we share the adventure...

Actually I wanted to point out that seeking to empty the cup is a fools errand... the 'empty' cup is full of air ... more latter ok I have some time now... the central point I sought to convert was emptying ourselves of... is better done by filling ourselves of something that we want to have... do not think of an apple leads to thinking of an apple and ways to get not to think of it do think of an elephant leads to thinking of an elephant (and unless I mention the apple its likely that you will not to think of the apple when thinking of an elephant) The analogy of the cup leads me to think that if what we are pouring in does not mix with what is in the cup and is heavier than whats in the cup it will displace the stuff there... I think that the point you where making was to first empty the cup ( by filling the cup with air) then pour into the cup what you want and displace the air out of the cup... the cup will always be full... the question is full of what? half water half air...

Stosh The guy you told "You have the patience of a woman ...." may see that as quite a complement IF the guy sees a woman's patience as generally better than a man's patience... the same goes for the various other ways ... of course if the guy has a negative view of the women traits sure it will likely be offensive...

No wonder I didn't get what you meant... now I believe i understand what you said better and why you said it... What I meant was quite different from "separate but equal" and Indeed I do know that that "separate but equal" was BS... On that note the notion that everyone's opinion is equally valid is actually rather absurd... even the premise that everyone is equal is actually rather absurd... though getting into that may distract us from the topic...

It would be interesting to read in a different thread the story of your life and how you came to be the legal owner... and created the perfect place... the point I was seeking to make center on the notion of MY stuff, my thought, my land, natural for me... in light of stuff, thoughts land and what be natural... Sometimes the distinction of my stuff and your stuff becomes quite fuzzy ... Yes we are all individuals special and unique our that singularity and uniqueness is what makes us all equal... remember the individual steps of the infinite ladder ... each has its unique and special level and each has infinite levels above it and below it... and thus at any given step its actually the same thing infinite levels above it and below it... Considering the human animal perspective... of this life time I hold that before I was here there where words and after I leave everything points to the fact that there will be words here... Remember I said To transcend the dualistic thinking we need to find a singular point where all are distinctly unique while identical... this can be observed with the singular absolute meaning of words... What was said and what was heard are two separate instances when they are identical though clearly separate if you know one you know the other while distinguishing them apart and together... you responded : "You confused me with that one. Hehehe. Is that something like "separate but equal"? You do know that was BS don't you"? BTW someone can show us where one of our understandings is wrong or misunderstood and we may just reject it rather than change what we believe... because of what we believe... remember that saying about those who need to listen the most are the ones who rarely do listen...