et-thoughts

Stosh, My remark regarding it explaining 'it been to quite' was intended as a humorous punt... Personally I had had a bit of difficulty following certain threads here dew to 'not knowing how best to do it'. That aside I think that there is also a bit of avoiding certain interplay's because of stuff... I too feel like stopping sticking my neck out there to jointly explore certain issues... which causes individuals to be stumped, some individuals have already decided upon something without further interest on the subject matter. Somehow I ended up in these forums with the intent to share certain ideas and see what follows while working them out. I trust others here share the desire ... As you said "Yep, we all are muddling through,, and at the same time feel like our own view of things is special!" FWIIW 'suspension of disbelief' is impossible at most one can have believes that help us see stuff rather than prevent us from seeing stuff... The notion that we can be free from belief is a delusion which keep us from seeing the truth... The deceived believe they are free while enslaved in the delusion where as those bound to the truth know they are bound to the truth which sort of sets them free... we can directly observe the universe if what we think corresponds to what we have around us. A while back I had an interesting dialogue that lasted quite a bit. It was an interchange which lead me to suspend what I believed though it wasn't easy. The belief that I had to give up was the notion that there could exists identical copies of knowledge in separate minds. I believed that it was evidently impossible... something similar to the notion that its impossible to observe the universe directly... because we can only observe directly our thoughts... Eventually I realized that it was possible and gave up the belief I held... Yes the senses are faulty still it is possible to twist the twisted just so that it ends up being straight... besides sometimes the twisted view is actually much better ... I am a bit against the idea of crushing the ego, negating the self and pro the idea of cultivating the ego and self. The process of unification needn't involve losing the singular uniqueness involved... I do still see bad vs good... Note that I actually reversed how you framed it... there is a reason for this... I hold its possible to know good by knowing good... that is that bad is not necessary... if taken to the extreme the bad are so bad that they do bad badly and end up doing good without knowing it nor wanting it... oh for the record even though I may come across as closed minded know that I am rather open minded to dialogue about stuff... so do keep the interplay going... who knows we may discover enriching stuff for each and everyone

Nikolai1 I assume you want me to elaborate a bit on my last post... Will try to do that using the map and the territory analogy... with a third distinctive domain... so we have a map, a territory and distinctions... The distinctions can be of the map, of the territory, of the distinctions. To me its self evident that the territory exists independent of someone distinguishing its existence or having a map of it. "The Physical reality be the physical reality..." Now "the subjective thought realm" is a bit like the map world. Some stuff in the map corresponds to stuff in the physical reality and then some stuff in the map belongs to the map. Take for example 'city-county-states line boundaries' ... The boundaries in the territory are somewhat arbitrarily defined... in reality these 'boundaries' are much less clear. Butterflies constantly move from canada to mexico to canada. Do these bugs have a nationality? How about birds, deer, fish, wales ? How about particles that move from place to place? How deep does the rabbit hole goes? Some of the distinctions belong only to the world of maps (subjective thoughts) , and some distinctions belong only to the territory (the physical realm) and some distinctions belong only to the distinction realm... of course this all gets a bit more intriguing when distinctive thought-feelings-emotions interact and create realities. Imagine that drawing a map of a territory creates that territory vice-versa. If you have a hard time imagining this just google the 3D printing technologies being developed... where a computer design of a tool produces the tool envisioned and 3D scan-imaging of the tool creates a computer design of it. I said that Its easy to confuse what seems to be real because its real with what seems to be real because it seems to be real... I am sure we could find examples of this in many domains... some talented counterfeiters excel at it...

The Physical reality be the physical reality... the subjective thought realm be the subjective thought realm... whether these two interact, or more precisely how these two interact depends on what be going on... Its easy to confuse what seems to be real because its real with what seems to be real because it seems to be real... be careful

(in what follows me refers to each and everyone: you-us-me ) Indeed! While its impossible for me to know it for sure, I can still know it for sure, thanks to it knowing it all... what is impossible for me to do, becomes possible for me to do thanks to knowing it and it knowing me. (consider rereading this statement replacing 'you' for 'me' or using "us" "one" "them") Yes, sure, there may not be an overview for one on how it works, just as there may be! besides with or without such overview or knowing how it actually works one can still work it out...

(in what follows me refers to each and everyone: you-us-me ) Indeed! While its impossible for me to know it for sure, I can still know it for sure, thanks to it knowing it all... what is impossible for me to do, becomes possible for me to do thanks to knowing it and it knowing me. (consider rereading this statement replacing 'you' for 'me' or using "us" "one" "them") Yes, sure, there may not be an overview for one on how it works, just as there may be! besides with or without such overview or knowing how it actually works one can still work it out...

Yes, Yes ... caring water and chopping wood become whole different experiences for the enlightened ...

Today I saw your response for the first time... that sort of explains in part why it is too quiet :-) I take it that "reality as a straw dog" means reality 'be in such a desperate situation as to resort to even the most unlikely means of salvation' From the looks of things I would say that nobody actually knows for sure what to do...(and I include myself in that) when to push, when to pull, when to let it go, what to do (which includes what not to do)... detachment /separation from the outcomes to me means that regardless of what happens one certainly be enriched by it. (some could choose the other alternative and regardless of what happens they certainly loose ). Maybe the core conundrum of the reality game involves resolving the game to be played while playing it... and enjoying it. Why worry about what happens upon ones demise instead of focusing on what happens upon ones being?

Stosh, The possible problems to solve and the possible solutions remains constant... the response I built like a castle upon a shore exists forevermore within a time and a space even if it be unseen by some before or after the castle was constructed. Yea maybe my post will enjoy a different incarnation who knows in a different time and space that message was not lost at all. BTW the possibilities be infinite ... just as the opportunities and other stuff... Water only the flowers that you want to cultivate in the sun...

I see some egos do what you state and then some egos do something else which allows other stuff to take place... so I come up with the story that its more about how the egos been educated than about the ego itself... the ego can be educated differently... the stuff that "don't manifest instantenously as I think about them" stems from dealing with other issues ... which may even relate to what the others beings that surround us think... the same story applies its more about the education involved...

I notice how many think that there are teachers who teach them stuff... I was fortunate to have had met someone on the way who showed me the truth... I was even more fortunate to had learned that truth... when that one showed it... It be the students that learns stuff... on the way there be other fellow travelers ... Some want to help, some want to hinder, some want to exploit, some want to cultivate, some want to share, some want to take, some want to teach, some want to learn... I know I cant teach but myself the truth... for one can only show others the truth... it is up to them it to accept it or reject it... Travelers down the same path are bound to share similar experiences... now some go into a path because of who they will meed there!

For some the seeking takes place within the feeling, believing, knowing. The open mind considers what be presented, to accept what be good, reject what be bad and a bit more. The righteous mind will see what be to be what be, good for good, bad for bad, truth for truth and even all the possibilities. Our atoms are not actually ours... Atoms are atoms and come and go ... Nutrients that come this way or go that way correspond to building blocks that arranged in a particular way help constitute and sustain our present being or just be stuff thats being carried from one place to another. It be stuff, that happens to move through us, be around us, exists within us BUT that isn't us. Think of a virus or bacteria or of a cell. Even if lose some members I remain being me. The lost member that used to be part of me move on to be part of something else without me... then again if all of my members remain and I leave what remains moves on to be part of something else without me...

Children need to appreciate and learn to have pride in what be done... by them by other for them for others...

'ChiDragon Friend...You gave an analogy.... some choose to make it be bad and some choose to make it be good... then some choose to see what you did for what you did

True Masters finish the fight even before the fighting begins... The forms only helps to get the student to the point of understanding and then its up to the student to actually understand it Does one seek to rise to the heights of the opportunity? does one just stand to perform at the lever of training? One only has one teacher, though many a messenger will seek to make you believe otherwise. I am just a messenger who seeks to make a point clear its up to each to actually understand this

Yea one has only one teacher! Many seek to play that part for one but only one can play it... in fact one meets all kind of being in the path who show this and that but its up to each to choose what to learn and what not to learn... what do I think when is the time to leave ones sifu....??? well it must be the time when one knows all there is to know... then one can leave ones teacher and focus on ones being...

Oh well the response I had almost completed writing 'vanished' and now the task of rewriting it just does not seem appealing... Will just say that the wise workman knows that the true value resides NOT in what goes in but what one does with it and what one produces... the products coming out should be more valuable than the ones going in... else the business will just run out of work...

YES, sometimes we ought to Seek forgiveness and Mercy! From whom? well from those we have wronged and slapped in the face rather than patted on the back. We be here, some play it like a zero sum equation, some do other stuff then some play to collaborate cultivate and enrich themselves, others and the game. Some play win-lose and some play win-win (and some even play lose-lose ) The losers play the games for a chance to win and loose every time The winners play the games for a chance to exercise and win every time Regardless of how one plays every thought word feeling action has consciences and consequences ... Some like to pretend that that is just an illusion ... that there are no consequences con consciences... Just hit the reset button and start a new game... Starting fresh give each the opportunity to choose what to cultivate... players on each side will invite you to play their games ... with all sort of lures and schemas... the paradoxical part is that each is forced to the experience while free to choose to learn the lesson and move on or repeat the experience... some choose resentment rather than appreciation...

I believe there is a reason one has the body one has... and its to experience and learn certain lessons... some choose NOT to learn the lessons ... and instead insist on doing something else... eventually everyone gets the lessons one way or another... for some it takes a little more than forever which to the eternal is but a blink of the eye...

K the notion of Nature rules, nurture rules and some other rules is quite interesting.... body-mind-spirit interact with each other and which rules can be rather complex issue... Even in the virtual world we have hardware-software-wetware interacting with each other and which rules can be rather complex issue :-) I believe that its certainly possible (will be possible) to migrate consciousness from one body to another. We can assume that our body to be ours just as we can assume that our body has been loaned to us... our bodies are in a constant flux exchange: giving receiving transforming pulsating and more Yes we presently are 'incarnated'... what happens after this body expires? I suppose we will find out IF we keep going or we will just expire... what we choose to do with this body now is a more pertinent question to me.. I believe we inherit tendencies and depending on what we choose to cultivate we then pass tendencies to offsprings... along with some dormant hereditary tendencies... I could give specific examples of this... Oh and by inherit tendencies I am talking about physical-intelectual-spiritual and additional ones. You ask "But what if I never find out"? Well then you never find out :-)... and if you somehow find out well then you will know :-) There may well come a time when each and everyone will see the truth of the matter and will choose to accept the truth or reject it. Personally I prefer recognizing the truth while focusing on cultivating what be desirable-sustainable-congruent with life... sometimes in involves the humility to recognize errors and the courage of seeking forgiveness.

Yea indeed we could already be enlightened and just insist on having this temporal illusory experience... for a little while longer... Oh we can definitely make a whole new fresh set of choices just now and can have a whole set of fresh circumstances right this instant for we are free in this life to choose what to do... why we choose to keep going in the direction we be going should make us wonder that we must really want what we have going right now... Is there no ultimate goal? who knows ... but just in case there is strive to attain it and when you really find out you will be happy or it wont matter at all at that point...

Whether it makes sense (or does not) hardly matters especially when we desire to know the truth of the matter. Of course if we are not even interested in exploring the matter at hand it is also of little relevance. Was just sharing some thoughts on the matter at hand curious to the responses that would follow. Notice that we usually trust those 'authorities' who say its true ... Each religion devotee is like that... Hope everyone realizes the truth... regardless of who they trusted to be telling it...

Will keep an open mind, hope you do the same :-) BTW it may actually be impossible to prove it one way or the other! Maybe the lesson each needs to get involves how to choose without getting to know which be the truth and which be the lies. What I present sort of ensures that be it real be it a dream one always chooses the better way... :-)

Vmarco Oh how I like your response Vmarc, Now let us each share an eternal instant that can change it all (or not). Deep down I believe you know/feel/trust that enlightenment happens ... and that enlightenment happens when enlightenment happens! There is nothing one can do to make it happen when it isn't supposed to happen nor to prevent it from happening when it is supposed to happen for enlightenment happens when enlightenment happens! What one can do, what one can't do in the container, outside the container seen from within the container and seen from without the container differ quite a bit ... though it may appear otherwise. The other day I did a cartoon to make a point about the enslaving container to a friend... will have to see if I find it to post here... though I would have to translate it into english first. It was rather amusing that each side would claim to the other "you are enslaved" if you choose to be free come to this side... Each side would respond "you want to trick me into enslavement"... the irony of the matter was that the one who thought themselves to be free was deceived and enslaved by thinking that they where free; while the one who knew themselves to be bound enjoyed greater freedom. Any way both the noble and the liar will claim to tell the truth stating "I tell the truth"... each will be doing honor to their condition with the exact same words.. the noble would be telling the truth and the liar would be telling a lie. BTW with a singular insight one can think/feel/experience their way out of the container of duality ... or more precisely be enlightened to what be really going on in and throughout. In the eternal instant where the past-present-future be, one can see all of time and no time and a bit more... The present arises regardless of the presence ... just like the truth be regardless of someone claiming it, denying it, knowing it, ignoring it... Thinking CAN and does experience the world directly, when properly done, it can change the future the present the past and more. Sometimes thinking is a product of space-time then there are the cases where thinking be independent of space-time and still there be the cases where thinking be thinking. Why try to do when one can simply do? Some thinking-selves reinforce and focus on the false thoughts and some thinking-selves reinforce and focus on the thoughts that enlighten them and others through singular distinctions and integrations. One can be one with another in separation an in union within time and where time begins, ends and endures. I am curious how anyone can manage to perceive objects in the past... seems to me that now be the only instant there be! being in the actual Now or Present reflects being in the actual Now or Present it does not have to do with the dissolution of something nor the recognition of something it has to do with being in the actual now or present. The truth be the truth, declared to be or not declared to be, The truth be the truth! The intellect grounded in the absolute knows the truth... be it relative or absolute. For the intellect grounded in the relative The absolute is not within the reach of intellect... A true relativist would deny being a relativist in rejecting the absolute truth and would deny being a relativist in accepting the absolute truth. Where as a true absolutists can always become both a relativist and absolutist by choosing the absolute truth. I am all for an honest dialogue about these matters be it in dreams, be it in realities so long we seek to hold together a reality that is real sustainable-desirable-congruent with life. Real presence is always available, the challenge is embracing it. Anything can exists in balance and without balance. The Instinctual, Emotional, and Intellectual Centers can help us and hinder us just as balance can. Endeavor to understand-expserience-apreciate the universe and more. Cultivate and master body-mind-spirit though realize that even when you attain and achieve full mastery of physical energy, universal mindedness, and spiritual insight - and express them in a virtuous integral life, to attain pure Tao one still has to LOVE. In fact with pure LOVE, mastery of the body-mind-spirit isn't required for one lives a virtuous integral life, not to attain pure Tao but to exude pure Tao. earth energy - body heaven energy - mind harmonized energy - spirit The present is present in time and present outside the container of time and no time. Now we can know many realities through the six senses and through other means but beware that some possibilities where meant to remain as possibilities where as some where intended to become realities. Evidently our senses, beliefs thoughts emotions bodies and other stuff affect us and each other. Give pause and/or triggers various transformational states to awaken what needs awakening and bind what needs binding now be the time to do it once and for all. Draw attention to what is true in us, in others, throughout everything for as we learn to recognize the truth as the truth, there can be lasting transformations, and each will always be drawn towards the truth of the matter even within illusion, for divine dreams can and do come true... while false delusions fade away. BE present now, thank God, who sustains everything and enlightens all. If someone threatens you be valiant and chose peace. If someone intends to slaps move so it becomes a caress and properly directs the energy in constructive ways. Dance jujitsu style and move with love in love for love.

... that gives each abundantly of what they want (while providing them all with just one answer, though with infinite possible solutions). Transcending the dualistic notions leads me to question the actual veracity of the Yin-Yang proposition. For a while I been moving from seeking to know what-is and what-is-not to what-be by knowing what-be. Maybe others here will be interested to jointly explore the proposition that one can know what be by just knowing what be, which includes what be possible, what be real, what be perfect and other distinctions. I have the hunch that those who cultivate opposition and dualism will seek to expose this invitation as a confrontation or abstain from accepting this invitation to dialogue rather than followthrough and expose the truth of the matter at hand. Its a bit of a intellectual-emotional-spiritual coax into enlightenment. Would be rather interesting to see what happens next... so lets see what happens and take it from there.

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