Alchemistgeorge

gee, guys, would you ask specific questions? I get the feeling that not everyone is reading the responses I've posted already. I've talked to people about this stuff from 1987 until about 1994, covered a lot of ground, and learned a lot since then. I'm not going to just type all that up. And I'm not particularly up for sharing gossip. And how many of you have read Mantak Chia's website & Michael Winn's website on this topic?

Hi, FYI I just listed the following titles on paperbackswap. Chan Mi Gong by Liu Han Wen Tales of the Dancing Dragon by Eva Wong Chinese Qigong Therapy by Zhang Mingwu & Sun Xingyuan (1988) Secrets of the Tai Chi Circle by Luke Chan I post a lot of reviews on Amazon.com - that's where I'd suggest you research any of these titles.

still not sure what you are looking for. what I've said above are (AFAIK) the most salient guidelines for practice. That is the information that I think is useful. Most of the rest is entertaining or gossip, or (as far as I can tell) only of real use to people who are doing the practices. Have you read all the material on the immortal practices on Mantak Chia's website? There is a lot there. There is a lot on Michael Winn's site too. If you want to learn the practices, Mantak Chia has written a book on lesser Kan & Li, or you can buy the retreat tapes (CDs), or Michael Winn has a set. The lesser kan & li book is really skinny but has a lot of information. I know most of the elements of the practices, but I am not the one to teach them. If you don't have a strong Fusion practice then I would guess you will find it really hard (and imho unwise) to learn the higher practices.

not to be snippy, but what I learned from talking to my seniors was not very surprising. Practice hard and practice regularly. Master the foundation practices first. Don't get caught up in psychic phenomena or the excitement of unusual experiences, just do the practices. Don't mess around with other beings/entities/forces. People really like doing the practices, they take a lot of focus. And they take a lot of energy. You have to have a strong practice coming in. When you go to a class with Mantak Chia he will give you energy to help 'jump start' but unless you practice really hard that jump start energy dissipates in days. At first its just another meditation, over time it gets deeper and more real. However you will have lots of experiences that are just 'noise' - stuff created by your mind that isn't real, or the result of releasing garbage - it is not usual for people to misinterpret those as being highly significant - "I hear voices" - and then you feel like a total ass when you realize you left too much energy in a higher center and those voices were just some kind of minor overload - like hearing cross-talk on a phone line. People get very hung up about the OOBE stuff - for example lesser Kan & Li is where people usually start having out of the body experiences - one fellow told me that at first the experiences were involuntary - at the beginning he thought they were dreams - and it took him a long time to get voluntary control.

sorry, no. Its been twenty years. I've never heard about physical changes, certainly never seen any. I'm very leery of anything about visions or psychic phenomena - most of those experiences I've had have fall into the category of 'entertaining, but without meaning.' I find that sort of stuff is usually a distraction from the path. Why don't you google Michael Winn's forum and ask folks there who have done the practices?

first I wanted to say that the change that Michael Winn is suggesting is very easy. First you make a pearl, then you move it through the organs in the sequence of the creation cycle feeling the positive emotions, each creating the next, then you bring the pearl back to the caldron and start collecting the negative energies from each organ to blend/balance & refine. The way I was originally taught was make a pearl, balance the emotions, do the creation cycle. This may all sound daunting, but its just like learning to drive a car - at first there are million things to notice and do and then it all becomes automatic. second, I completely agree with Michael's 'gradualist' approach - learn something, practice it, then learn the next step. That was the way Mantak Chia was taught and learned. My internal clock is that I'm not on the road to learning something until I've put 100 hours into it. "Take your time", "practice diligently", "be patient", "develop skill" doesn't sell well in our current fast-paced instant gratification society. Where is the $1.99 'become a Taoist Immortal' iPhone App? I've not done the "immortal practices" - starting with lesser Kan & Li - which includes the "self intercourse" - where you combine your own male and female energies to conceive and give birth to yourself. I certainly know plenty of people who have done this, its not something I've heard a lot of chatter about, I've talked in depth about it with a couple of the senior instructors who told me some of the personal experiences, so I have no doubts about the reality of it.

I've done the practices. Was never overwhelmed by any negative emotions, usually was overwhelmed by an pervasive sense of calm and tranquility. When I first learned them they were called Fusion I, II, and III, and they are pretty amazing practices. They do require good focus. I've usually done the creation cycle after blending and balancing the emotions. FWIW I've taken the Fusion classes several times from Mantak Chia and I own Michael Winn's Fusion instruction CDs. Michael has some interesting (and I think good) perspectives on teaching American vs. Chinese students. I've only taken a couple of classes from him (at Taoist Summer Camp), he is a good teacher (imho).

I haven't looked at the book in a couple of years ... so the practices are fundamentally about moving energy around - inward & upward. If the energy ain't going out (ejaculation), where is it going? Unless you have deliberately taken steps to clear your meridians, they can be various amounts of blocked. So you might have the goal of moving your energy from your testes to your crown, but there is a blockage you don't know about and you wind up with all your energy stuck somewhere south of your neck - like behind your heart - where it might do mischief. You also might try to force something, which is never a good idea. Your aroused male sexual energy is hot. If you bring it up to your head, it will warm your brain. Leave it there too long and or bring too much there and you will 'cook' your brain. No kidding. That's why people talk about 'kundalini psychosis'. The ending step is always to bring your aroused sexual energy down from your brain to a place in your body where it is safe to store it. Know where that is? This is why folks have mentioned you should open your microcosmic orbit first, and why I mentioned you should get the older book and pay attention to the safety precautions. Why take a chance? Do you need an instructor? Your mileage may vary. First you need the correct information. I wish Mantak Chia would update the two sex books - he is a much better writer than he used to be (imho). But the information is all in the books. IMHO what you do need is to be in touch with other knowledgeable people, and be asking questions if something 'unusual' happens. Regular classes are great for that cause you ... talk ... with other people at class, hear their experiences, questions, ask some of your own. Everybody explains things in a different way, hearing it from different people may make it easy for you to understand. The other thing is that if you go to a class, the energy of your instructor and the combined energy of the group will give you a temporary boost which can speed things along. Even if your instructor has only been practicing a couple of years. There are a lot of certified healing tao instructors around. Opening the orbit requires you to learn what energy feels like, how to feel it in your body, and to gain a some modest degree of control over moving it around. It also gives you a bunch of experience of what things feel like and how your body responds - some days your energy is cool, some its warm sometimes its thick - so in a pretty safe way you get a body of experience about what feels "normal" or within the range of normal. Its kind of like learning all about wax and candles and small flames before you start working with gasoline (sexual energy). Its also a way for you to start developing a deeper relationship with your body. And it is a huge safety valve. It evens out and balances things in your body, if you create an imbalance you can smooth it out by running your orbit. Its also really good for you. I'm also a big fan of the six healing sounds. ------- * that safe place is your navel. Another is your lower dan tien.

If it helps you develop a regular practice, why not? I assume you'll have a goal of improving your focus and concentration, and over time the blindfold will be unneeded.

sorry, I've now written about two different sets of practices - Chinese and Californian. About which are you asking? - California is all about relaxing. - The Chinese (Taoist) practices start out using contractions - when you are ready to move energy you contract to direct the energy upwards - you have to active the sacral and cranial pumps, etc. However after a lot of practice you just put your attention on your crown and the energy rises - without contractions.

Welcome. One of the things I've found in my own practice has been acceptance - acceptance of myself, by myself. I find that through practice I become more and more of who I am.

Thanks Snowmonki for excellent (and long) answers. The only point I'd add is to emphasize that it is - in my experience - about "allowing" - you surround a blockage and allow it to dissolve. You don't do anything to it, you don't "dissolve it." I've found this to be quite mind twisting, but it seems to work (for me) and it seems to result in things releasing at a rate that I can deal with. FWIW I stand and dissolve for about 30 minutes a day.

I agree broadly with Hydrogen. There are many roads to pleasure. The fire tradition of Esoteric Taoism is just one. The water tradition is another. In addition to my Taoist studies, I practice and teach non-Taoist sexual techniques - I teach a course that includes a fairly clinical demonstration of a woman in orgasm for an hour. i.e. her orgasm lasts an hour. No meditation, no qigong, or anything is involved. No mantras, no statues, no incense, no pujas. No equipment. No ancient scriptures. Publicly demonstrated hundreds of times since 1976. And its not just for women! In 42 years of research, the group has never found an upper limit to how much pleasure can be experienced, or any limit on how long it can last. It is a different experience from the "7 levels of orgasm" / valley orgasm / etc. of Taoism, but its also wonderful and amazing. In brief, I would say that "relaxation is the path". The more you can relax during sex (or stimulation) the more sensation will spread throughout your body. What I've been taught (and experienced) is that tension / contraction tends to localize sensation. For me the hardest thing to relax was my prostate gland and pelvic floor / perineum. The other major point is "be here now." Pleasure happens now, not in the future, not in the past. [The past is memory, the future is fantasy - both experiences in your head, not your body]. (memory and fantasy are very fun too.) Have your attention on your body (and a partner's body) now. Feel now. And now. And now. Don't try to get anywhere - goal orientation is a cerebral activity that takes you out of the present, and devalues now. Quite simple, just not that easy. But the homework is great fun. <big smile> There is, of course, a bit more to it. And it is a skill - takes practice.

From the Tao of Sexology, page 75 (Dr. Stephen Chang) The Deer Exercise can correct many sexual problems, including premature ejaculation, low sexual hormone levels, infections of the testicles, wet dreams, and impotence. ... Premature ejaculation and semen leakage are commonly thought to be psychological in nature. Wet dreams are regards as normal by medical science. But from the Taoist point of view, wet dreams are not normal. They indicate a weakness of the prostate gland. Premature ejaculation is also an indication of a weak prostate gland.

Taoist Sexual Meditation: Connecting Love, Energy and Spirit by Bruce Frantzis. I'm at ~ page 50 Sex in the Yellow Emperor's Basic Questions by Jessieca Leo This is mostly about theory, history, and the development of ideas in TCM. Am about 150 pages in.

What you've said, what you are doing, makes perfect sense. Perfect sense. And that is exactly how those books are being marketed. Yes, you can learn to have non-ejaculatory orgasms. Fuck for a long time. New quality of sex life. Nothing wrong with those intentions. Nothing. FYI, fucking for a long time isn't necessarily what women want, or not all the time. Ditto 'rock hard erections.' But I digress - that is a long and complicated issue that I won't go into. But the ‘multi-orgasmic’ books are better at making you a better lover than at teaching you Taoist practices. Anyhow, the Taoist practices and the non-Taoist information in the multi-orgasmic books can be used to become a better lover. And more power to you. And, yes, there is a bigger picture. Done properly, sexual qigong will make you stronger, healthier, and may slow the rate at which you age. At least that is my experience. It is also a kind of spiritual rocket fuel. But to use rocket fuel, you need a rocket. A space suit. Launch pad. Etc. So it turns out (as far as I can tell) that the sexual practices are only one element of a bigger puzzle. The sexual practices are only one part of self-cultivation, providing the fuel to the higher practices. [other elements are other kinds of meditation and neikung practices, diet, etc] As far as I can tell, sexual practices are part of almost every system. Of course in many many systems the sexual practice is “don’t”. There are lots of ways of "conserving energy." “Don’t” is the way it is in many sects of Taoism, too. The Taoist sexual practices were only in certain lineages, and were kept secret for a long time, and for centuries (or millennia) the Chinese government stamped them out whenever they became too visible in monasteries, etc. The solo practices are pretty incredible. Dual cultivation [with a partner] is not just twice as good, it is far far more than that. Harder though. The people I've seen get the most from the sexual practice have daily practice routines that include daily meditation and some "grounding" practice - like standing meditation or tai chi or martial arts – something that emphasizes the energetic connection between your spirit, your physical body, and the planet.

I believe Dr. Stephen Chang's books say to do the deer exercise to control wet dreams.

I average a bit over 2 hours a day - stuff from "Opening the Energy Gates" - standing dissolving, spiralling, cloud hands, swings, and some Hsing Yi / I Chuan. Its taken me a long time to get to this level, I've now had a consistent daily practice since 2008. I hate to say it, but it might be because of my job. Practicing every day is the only way I can cope with the stress of working at a start-up. Having a practice log - spreadsheet - checking my averages and logging my practices - really helps me.

Having studied with Mantak Chia for many years, and practiced the sexual practices, I would say that if you wish to learn the Taoist sexual practices I do not recommend any book with the words 'multi-orgasmic' in the title. They are valuable books, but do not contain the complete Taoist practices and consist largely of non-Taoist information. Buy the originals, you should be able to get them used for only a few dollars each Healing Love through the Tao: Cultivating Female Sexual Energy Taoist Secrets of Love: Cultivating Male Sexual Energy As Lezboyenne says, you need to open your orbit first. These two books spell out the safety precautions. Follow them. I've found the CDs etc. by Michael Winn very useful. Michael is one of Mantak Chia's senior students, and he is a very capable instructor. He also wrote this interesting essay, which I recommend. When you draw the sexual energy up your spine to your brain you will have a 'brain and senses' orgasm. It can be like an LSD trip that lasts 90 to 120 seconds. With practice, that is only the very beginning. If you search under my name, you'll find a couple of other posts I've written on the practices. If you learn the deer exercise, you'll notice that if you pull up and hold the front of your anus, you can easily send the perineal floor muscles into spasms and contractions, which is very pleasurable, but is not the non-ejaculatory orgasm.

I'm only on page 20, so I can't say. Yet. <joke> stay tuned, I'm reading it eagerly.

I was taught that people often use sex as a way of dumping unwanted emotional energy, so yes, you could pick up 'garbage' from others. I've talked at length with some female taoist instructors who have confirmed that this is their personal experience - that sex can come with energetic baggage from a partner. It wasn't until I was a couple years into practicing that I was able to feel this myself. The way I was taught dual cultivation, when you pull your sexual energy up to your crown (resulting in a 'brain & senses' orgasm), then you exhale all of it down and into your partner, who is pulling their energy (and yours) in and up, resulting in their 'brain & senses' orgasm. You then circulate this cloud of orgasmic energy back and forth by linking your orbits - this balances the energy between you two and allows you to proceed to 6 more levels of orgasm. In any case, you are literally blending yourself with your partner, which really makes me want to be choosy about who I have Taoist sex with. My partner has rheumatoid arthritis, and many times we have stopped a 'flare up' using dual cultivation - the 'heat' of my yang energy warms her lower dan tien and <various TCM stuff> happens. At one point we actually got her so healthy that she was able to completely stop taking steroids for several months - she became completely asymptomatic because of the sexual practices. However, during that time, I really put the 'pedal to the metal' in my practices as I knew I was incorporating a large amount of her imbalance and I did not want to become sick. ps: I've read both the White Tigress / Jade Dragon books, and general agree with your perceptions. Based on those books I am not a fan of the White Tigress / Jade Dragon system - doesn't feel right for me. But Your Mileage May Vary.

Healing Love through the Tao: Cultivating Female Sexual Energy, by Mantak Chia It is, IMHO, much better than his men's book - better illustrated, more thorough explanations. I recommended it highly. Contains detailed instructions on how to do the specific practices - solo practices and dual cultivation. Do NOT ignore the safety precautions. The danger is real. For a more complicated, and amazing source: Art of the Bedchamber The Chinese Sexual Yoga Classics Including Women's Solo Meditation Texts by Douglas Wile I personally do not recommend The Sexual Teachings of the White Tigress - among other things it contains few techniques and little specific information. I also don't recommend any of the Chia / Abrams books with the word 'multi-orgasmic' in the title. They are useful sex books, but surprising aren't very much about Taoist sex - most of the information in the books isn't Taoist. The books do not, imho, describe completely or usefully the full set of relevant Taoist practices.

FWIW, what I was taught (years ago) was that people who 'receive' ejaculations do not get the jing unless they know the higher alchemical practices ( ie. kan & li).

well, at the risk of drawing flack, I'd suggest that you start with cultivation and then move on to healing later. It is not always clear whose energy you are using in healing, it is generally best not to use your own, and then there is the issue of picking up stuff from the recipient of the healing. Its all much clearer once you know what energy feels like, and which energies are yours. A really easy place to start cultivation is zhan zhuang standing. - is a short [free] youtube videos which introduce you zhan zhuang Beyond that, do you prefer still or moving activities (meditation or martial arts / moving qigong)? meditation includes standing, sitting, etc. There are discussions about many lineages and teachers here, we are all certain that our teachers are the single best ones <joke>, as far as I can tell a good approach is to try a few things or look at a few books or DVDs and see which ones feel "good" to you. And then try that. Best of luck

Hi dmattwads, How long have you been practicing testicle breathing? I've noticed that when I start a cycle of working with my sexual energy, at first it seems to dramatically intensify my interest in sex. I used to call this "riding the tiger" - when I was 30 it was quite a ride. After three or four weeks of practice, I seem to grow accustomed to the higher level of sexual energy in my body and my level of desire, interest, and libido became more "normal." Best of luck in your practice, A.G.