Nelida

so I was getting somewhere after all, lol and I like talking about his too I didn't find anything in-depth about Tzujan yet, I will have to look a little further, I'm surprised I really didn't hear about it until now, thanks! "My personal opinion of socialization is that its a "double edged sword"that should best be blunted on one side and sharpened on the other" I like this thought, very nicely put this way aside from the fact, though, that you need ( do you? ) to decide on a certain term to be able to know 'this is what we are speaking of right now" isn't this also in part because the things we speak of now in this thread aren't part of our western socialization, not part of the reality or paradigm that we were raised in? I suppose people who were raised with certain concepts wouldn't have a need to discuss this in the manner we do, it would be part of their respective socialization. They may also have differing views, of course, but what happens here a lot, in the west I mean, when trying to describe such concepts as are completely unfamiliar to us, is that the discussion may get stuck in the semantics, people disagreeing about a description of something that must be accurate, linguistic nitpicking? while it isn't really about a description, but about understanding what it is, really. maybe if you were raised in a society that acknowledges the existence of...qi, or natural spirits, or sees that people have animal guides and recognizes its characteristics, really any society that the west might view as superstitious and primitive, then you would also have a 'name' for something 'unnameable' simply for the purpose of addressing it, but then people would know what the other was talking about simply because they also have in themselves this connection with this nameless thing. Would socialization have to be blunted on one side too then? But maybe I'm just too inclined to think that the west is, for all its science and technology and so-called 'superiority' and reasonableness, actually...naturalistically backward.... What if we could dream together and wouldn't need words to describe but could share the direct experience? we could bypass all this.... ∞Nelida

oops, double post

Stosh you are right, of course, words are just that, words, but they may be, or they are, completely inadequate to describe a certain understanding that happens without words, or language, as our socialization has taught us to do to communicate... ∞Nelida

Stosh I LIKE your view Lad LCH, "To me, Taoism encourages one to TRULY know themselves. To understand their emotions, and in a way give tremendous personal insight into "reality creation". I do not mean this in the "New Agey", Intention a new car and get it, kind of way. More in a transcendental way. Through the process of understanding "self", one can more easily understand his/her surroundings. Life takes on a more "complex" perspective, yet, it seems to slow down and true "clarity" it experienced. Once the mind gets a taste of that "drug", it will magically actually work FOR someone, instead of creating "road blocks" to overcome. " yes! everything happens for you, not to you, if you learn to perceive it this way and can act accordingly ∞Nelida

maybe it is unclear from what I said ( rambled earlier, but I didn't mean it to be something personal or personified, to the contrary! if it seemed that way, then no, let me adjust by saying that I don't think this principle is anthropomorphic ( ok, this is not right, I mean...applicable to humans...?) in any way, if it is a universal principle, then it goes way beyond that. I'm not familiar with Tjuzan, so I'll have to look this up the 'nature' of something, or maybe its purpose does come close to this, but it...is not what I mean exactly, lol, difficult issue, this... ah, maybe this...if I may repost two earlier lines " The changes don't have consciousness, they have no action, they are silent and don't move. When they are roused, however, they pervade everything under the skies." this implies in a way that this impersonal principle that is ever present and shapes reality in a way, has the potential, or the other way around, if people /man learns to discern it and move to its appropriate wavelength, this energy or principle can be 'used' made practical or applicable to...ones own cause, I don't mean this to be manipulative in a bad sense, but, very simply said, if things are going well for you (because you are in Tao then you are more likely to be in the right place at the right time, to have good things come to you...it is possible to manipulate, and I suppose that means for good as well as for bad... ok, maybe I should stop trying to figure out what intent means to me now, lol, it's not going to get any better, I'm sorry, it was fun though plus, this was about not-doing and I'm straying off-topic.. I can't speak from an atheists perspective, so I don't know what you consider spiritual powers that don't exist. I don't believe in 'a' god in the traditional sense, but there is a lot more going on than what we see or believe to be true in our current paradigm, and I think it's a lot less 'personal' or human centered than most would feel comfortable with. At least, that is my understanding at this point, I have yet to grow a lot to actually 'see' this better than I do now. I agree that wu-wei is definitely not doing nothing, and frankly, I have a little trouble with the view of not acting or passiveness, I don't think this is what it implies, non-interference may be coming closer, but there I am also unsure of what it means practically. ∞Nelida

hi Rene thank you, and nice to make your acquaintance please disagree, lol, I made a connection in my head somewhere, but the expression of this thought was flimsy indeed, let's try again... I don't mean 'intent' in the manner of 'people's intentions' or 'I intend to eat pizza for dinner today' anyway ;p hmm..if the wu-wei or non-action of a tree is the thing it 'does not do' or is simply being then its intent is to sprout, to grow up, to give fruit, for example, in human reference ( tcm terminology that is) intent could maybe be described as 'zhi' or 'will' and it lies deeper than an intention, it's deeper than humanity, it's more..cosmic.. it is maybe the same as the 'intent' you set to perform sympathetic magic, if one is so inclined, or the 'intent' to give a question or dialogue with the I Ching, which makes you moves on the wavelength of the heaven and the earth I have a nice description here about understanding the way the I Ching might 'work' and how it gives its answers, I think it's from Confucius' Analects; ( this is slightly paraphrased and freely translated from the dutch book I have) "The Book of Changes contains the measure of Heaven and Earth, through it one can understand and bring order to the Tao of Heaven and Earth. [..] As man becomes equal to Heaven and Earth, there will be no conflict between them and his Tao will bring order to the world. [..] If then you ask how it is possible the I Ching brings you answers over time and space it could be said that it is a microcosm that mirrors the macrocosm. A man who is equalled to Heaven and Earth, or, a man who does not deviate from the movement of Heaven and Earth is therefore also a microcosm reflecting macrocosm. Man becomes equal to Heaven if he attempts to know and respect the Universal Laws, he becomes equal to Earth if he attempts to live and work according to these laws. If man is tuned in this way, his questions and the answers of the I Ching move on the same wavelength, and the miracle of resonance happens, the I Ching sounds through to man, and it becomes clear how it can answer your questions." and: " The changes don't have consciousness, they have no action, they are silent and don't move. When they are roused, however, they pervade everything under the skies." here, again, as with wu-wei and not-doing as discussed in this thread, there seems to be two different meanings, as I see it at this point anyway, on one hand, it is the natural inherent nonaction, on the other it is something more active, for lack of a better word, hmm, I don't think I made it any better, lol, the quantum-shaman page says 'intent is the active side of clarity' this resonates too, somehow..I want to look further for an explanation of intent as described in castaneda's books, but that will have to wait a bit, my love is claiming a little together time and I really have to go now maybe anyone else knows more about the Analects or has better words to describe this 'knowledge of no words'? lol until soon! ∞Nelida

hi Marblehead thanks for your comment, got me thinking again, you're right that 'nothing happening' is not the right nuance now that I read it back, it is indeed part of all that is everchanging and through the interaction a connection is made between the branch and my hand that consequently influences the changes that come afterward, the phrase 'touch the world lightly' comes to mind here for some reason, I wonder though, if ever something is really without intent, this reminds me of something else, a description I read about wu-wei, and consequently intent, I can't remember where it is from, it could well have been TTC, about how the seasons don't need an 'action' to do what they do, or a plant or tree doesn't 'act' in this sense, because it is simply the way they naturally change, if the snow melts, the seeds simply sprout and then grow because that's what they do, it's the 'intent' that is inherent in their existence that makes them move and change accordingly... ( I thought this was a beautiful passage, if it sounds familiar to anyone, let me know, I have no clue where I read this, could it be 'the web that has no weaver'?) I'm seeing 'intent' in a castanedian way here, I guess, I don't know how this would translate in another thought system, but I like the idea, I think what I wrote above, trees grow because it is inherent in what they do, may have made my own understanding clearer here, they don't 'act' because the intent set for them envelops all the actions and characteristics of their existence.... ...so then maybe 'intent' is the dynamic principle that initiates and shapes all changes, the movement and manifestation of qi in its different forms...and if you have 'intent' in what you do, you are in a way tapping in to something universally 'set in intent' and if you move along its lines, it's a natural movement and it is wu-wei.......... hmm....make any sense?...not sure it does to me, lol, I'd love to hear your thoughts, this is a good thread indeed ∞Nelida

pft ok I tried, chidragon, but you got a bad attitude, you don't want to have a dialogue with anybody, you only want to show off your truly chinese and very traditional correct view of things, and I'm still not buying it, I see no martial morality in your presenting yourself here, and I have just truly lost interest... ∞Nelida

thank you for explaining chidragon, and thank you for the link dwai.. can I ask you though, chidragon, what in your opinion is the western view of tai ji? and how do you know I have been exposed to it? ∞Nelida

ChiDragon, practice does make perfect, and it does take a while I'm not saying I'm so advanced, coz I'm probably not, I just train a lot and I am very lucky to have such a good teacher, so the difference in how I view and understand things changes and advances with every month I practice, and I also get stuck often and then I don't understand anything, which annoys me to death, so then I have to train harder to get past it your bluntness is excused, lol, no need to stay out of my way, don't be silly ∞Nelida

there's degrees in learning, right, once you get to a next step, because you've grown, other possibilities for learning open up that were not accessible before, like the outer movements of masters (to be) becoming smaller over time because their power becomes more internal and so their coilings can become less external and more internal, so it is throughout ones training I think, so yes, I feel that I have learned things to enable me to make some distinctions that I couldn't a year ago, or two years ago, for the benefit of mutual enhancement, which I see as a goal for the interaction of people in a place like this, what's the use of saying in effect 'you can't be feeling that because it takes a reaaally long time' ∞Nelida

lol Taomeow...no gloating, luckily, just a lot of good-natured being laughed at, we have a lot of fun chidragon, I'm still learning a lot every day, so I like being in this forum where I can relate to people enjoying the same things, and I reply to learn more and ask things and trying to figure out where my own understanding is at by trying to put into words what my body has learned...I don't come here to be told off by people who pretend to be such masters that they can teach all the rest, but whose comments are not constructive in any way, but excluding, especially not when they seem to be saying the complete opposite sometimes of what I have learned and what others here are saying... ( you see my comment is coloured by what I have read of you in this thread and elsewhere, it shouldn't, but it is, I'm sorry for that) anyway, that's why I said I wasn't getting into this I made a distinction between the two, peng and fajin, because I initially commented on your fa jin claim and muscle use, which I don't buy, maybe you're right about peng and fajin, I don't know, I'm no authority, just figuring things out, but they are not, however closely related, the same thing, I think, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, if I ward off a punch and the peng that 'comes up' from my midsection that makes me able to keep my safe space and my stance/root, then there is not necessarily a fajin involved......? is the fajin then issued generally in offense, not in defense? ∞Nelida

How is this a response to what I said? or is it that you don't agree, so I must not be training long enough? ∞Nelida

I agree that the development comes from long time practice of basics, however, even with my limited experience I would say that the basics don't train you to use your muscles more, rather less, just as the 'peng' expanding force doesn't rely on muscle strength, I can keep my peng solid against guys much stronger than me in a muscular sense, and I know peng is not a fa jin, but the force experienced comes from the same core, a kind of combo between the right alignment of your body and a pool of strength or qi or energy in your dantien, which sets up the strength in your body or stance like a bow, the fa jin is then, imho, a release from the coiling of this energy, but it is not reliant on muscle strength...I'm not saying I can use this principle all the time, though I've had my physical epiphanies, lol, even when you view it as a mechanical principle, I would still say that the speed and the force that travels through the body and is expressed in the hand comes through a certain looseness, fluidness....anyone else? ∞Nelida edited: missing an 'a' in a sentence.

yes!! thank you I suppose I'm somewhere about intermediate in my physical understanding, it's amazing to experience the transference of this power when training with my teacher, you don't feel him, where he is actually standing, he's fluid like water, and the next instant you're flying or crawling on the floor tapping out with your arm in a lock... ( hmm, a qin-na technique might not actually issue from a fajin, technically, I don't know, the point is, you never feel any muscular tension, in fact, the more tension their/opponents muscles exert, the easier it is to know your opponents position, throw off-balance, and the more painful your finishing moves, am I right? ∞Nelida

Maybe, this just occurred to me, Wu Wei is somewhat like Song in taiji, 'not tense, relaxed, but not limp, ' able to react to the way things are flowing, but the reaction is the natural one, so, in effect, there is nothing 'reactionary' happening, like, if I walk past a young tree, and brush my hand past one of its branches, it gives, but when I my hand moves past it, it moves back to where it was, so nothing actually happened, or the way water moves, it's not passiveness, but....naturalness, for lack of a better word, this conflicts a little with my understanding of Don Juan's not-doing ( from the books, not just the post)....but then again...hmm, I'll let this roll around for a while, first... ∞Nelida

ok, forget I asked, I got to page 7 of this thread somehow, and I can see that my question will lead nowhere....I'm not getting into this... ∞Nelida

I have not read through the entire thread yet, but... "Any force exerted by the muscles, of a long time Tai Ji practitioner, is Fa Jin." or I could underline the entire question... ??? ∞Nelida

hello everyone, a taoist forum...after all the beautiful discoveries I made today ( most regarding stances and silk reeling this one to end the day in such a delightful way! Embracing Taoism and getting ever deeper into it has changed my life around like I could never have imagined, I look forward to share this feeling with you and read everything in here! ∞Nelida

xie xie Thank you Rainbowvein, it's good to be here ∞Nelida

Thank you Basher there is a lot of info here indeed! I can get quite lost in reading, so I will have to pace myself balance with enough practice! see you around ∞Nelida

I have only recently started to incorporate the tongue positions in my TaiJi practice, so I may have some info backward, but my understanding was that the Fire position is the first, directly behind the teeth, and induces qi to flow, I have seen in this thread reference to the first position being Wind, which IMO is on the ribbed deck where the palate waves upward, the difference in feel is substantial, as the second position ( the Wind position in my experience) is much more cooling, so I wonder....maybe I missed it in here, but why are the two seemingly reversed?? The third I know as the Mud Palace, or where the Elixir is formed, and the one where the qi is consolidated in the system and which oozes sweet saliva once released, I find it brings a lot more focus to walking my forms. All three positions connect the Ren and Du meridians, and as my teacher suggested, once you have taken your qigong or taiji to a certain level, that is, once you generate a certain amount of qi ( I guess..?) and you got the ball rolling, you should, or may, always use the last position. I'm not familiar with the book that was referenced earlier, so can I ask, which are the five positions that correlate with the 5 elements? Are these 5 different positions altogether? is the Wind position Metal then?thanks! ∞Nelida

" I think Dogen said something similar when discussing time with students - "if you take some wood, burn it then view the ashes as the future tense of the wood, you misunderstand...wood is Suchness expressed as wood, ash is Suchness expressed as ash"...therefore the Suchness of wood has not changed by being burned. It is the Suchness that is immortal. To know this, a person must awaken to the fact they are not distinct." This is essential! It is, I think, the recognition of Oneness, non-duality, the Suchness is 'immortal' or maybe a better word might be perpetual, everlasting, as immortal has too many connotations of never-ending human life for the essence of Suchness. If you can experience this, truly recognize it to be true, you are in Tao, for that you need to increase your Awareness, which I think may be The reason for our existence, enhance or increase Awareness/Consciousness, really expand, beyond humanness, which is not to say that seeking Consciousness must be expanded to attain immortality, in this I can find reason in the opinion of old masters that immortality ( of Awareness, not of physicality...? ) is an aberration, as it defies the natural cycle of the elements/phases/movements, but maybe the spark of consciousness exists through all that, beyond it, I don't know... Does the point of view change if you see Wuji not as nothingness but as potential, as yet unmanifested everythingness? ∞Nelida