kaaazuo

Mr Chi, I meant to say 閻羅王.

Ok, Mr Chi. I accept your explanation for Line 9. Going forward, Line 10 through Line 15 tells us that this special guy, the one who knows how to preserve life, avoids tigers and rhinos and people out to harm him. Then comes the punch line, Line 16, that explains why he is not vulnerable: 16.以其無死地。 Direct meaning of above characters are "because", "he", "none", "death", "land". But you consider Line 16 to mean "because one has not entered the fatal environment" What, in your mind, is that fatal environment in life? No one would knowingly enter the fatal environment like stepping in front of traffic in a busy highway. Even if one can preserve life by not entering the fatal environment, is one safe from the claws of .閻羅

Mr Chi, what is your understanding of Chapter 50? I have copied your transalation and placed it below for your easy reference. Line 9 is translated in a curious fashion. 9. 蓋聞善攝生者 Word for word the above means "cover, repute, good, help, life." How on earth can these word be read as below? 9. I heard one who knows how to preserve life, Chapter 50 Translation in terse English: 1. From birth to death, 2. Those who lived longer are three out of ten, 3. Those who die sooner are three out of ten, 4. Some of the people could have lived longer, 5. But they choose to run toward death, 6. Also, three out of ten. 7. Then, why so? 8. It was due to their extravagant way of life style. 9. I heard one who knows how to preserve life, 10.Walking on land will not meet a rhinoceros or a tiger. 11.Enlisted man will not be harmed by weapons. 12.Rhinoceros has no chance to thrust its horn. 13.Tiger has no chance to utilize its claws. 14.Weapon have no chance to cut with its sharpen edge. 15.Then, why so? 16.Because one has not entered a fatal environment. Note: 十有三, has two possible interpretations: 1. Three out of ten. 2. Ten plus three which is thirteen. It was improper to translate it as "thirteen" within context here. 1. 出生入死。 2. 生之徒，十有三。 3. 死之徒，十有三。 4. 人之生， 5. 動之於死地， 6. 亦十有三。 7. 夫何故﹖ 8. 以其生生之厚。 9. 蓋聞善攝生者， 10.陸行不遇兇虎， 11.入軍不被甲兵。 12.兇無所投其角。 13.虎無所用其爪。 14.兵無所容其刃。 15.夫何故﹖ 16.以其無死地。

Mr Chi, you are right. I got it wrong. I was thrown off by the western association of flesh with desire as in pleasure of the flesh. What about this translation then? 5. When desire is not, behold the mystery. 6. When desire is, behold the form. Isn't the above translation closer to the Chinese text (which does not have the character "tao" in either line 5 or 6) than below? 5. Hence, when tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale. 6. When to is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

Mr Chi, based on the Cantonese I am listening to, 欲 means “flesh”. So the following lines: 5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。 6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。 should be translated as 5. Hence, when flesh is not, behold the mystery. 6. When flesh is, behold the form. So, why do you prefer the translation below? 5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale. 6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

Mr Chi, this is a great site. I am now learning the Tao Te Ching in Cantonese. Thanks a lot. Any good dim sum place where you live? I would like to buy you dim sum breakfast and good tea. Do you prefer poh lei or 龍 井?

Mr Chi, do we pronounce this 閻 羅 王 in Cantonese as Yeen Low Wong ?

The "it" is the origin of life and that means the origin of me. I don't know what gave rise to me. Aha, I precedes the Emperor. 知 者 不 言，言 者 不 知 Am I right, Mr Chi?

Ok, I read it. Are you still here? My apologies for this delayed reply. I could not access Tao Bums website through my browser for days! I just got in now. Here, for your assessment, is my translation of Chapter 4 followed by commentary in italics: 4 The Way - that boundless immensity encompassing the ten thousand things; Dull the starkness, Diffuse the chaos, Cut the glare, Be like dust Deep within yet ever present. I don't know what gave rise to it. It precedes the Emperor. The Emperor is a cultural symbol. It stands for supreme authority conferred by Heaven. Thus, to the Chinese, the Emperor is the Son of Heaven. This is not to be confused with the Son of God, a Christian ideology. Deep down, you know that life is profound even though you cannot pin down the reason for it to be. You sense a grand scheme of things holding everything together. From the furthest galaxies to the atomic structure of matter, there is that omnipresent order. It is there. Then, here you are, the Emperor, standing between Heaven and the common man who, bewildered and confused, is trying to figure out why the ten thousand things have come to be. The Way stands for this wondrous flow of life in all its endless diversity; consistent yet ever- changing; permanent but never the same. To be one with it, you must, Dull the starkness of reality and cut the glare of life’s bedazzlements. Untangle your conflicts and diffuse the chaos within and without. Give up your self-importance and be like dust!

Mr Chi, you are very courageous to declare lines 3 through 6 as out of context. I salute you for that. Other translators don't dare to question the text and translate it as it is even though is sounds crazy. I like your translation because it is direct from Chinese with no messing around. Can I show you my translation which attempts to include lines 3 through 6 and put them in context of Chapter 4? Any criticism you offer will be deeply appreciated.

Mr Chi, can you explain Chapter 4 of the TTC based on your translation?

Sounds like the other party left you. How long was that relationship? If you were to make a guess, what was the problem between you two? You feel better now? How does the Tao make you feel better? Perhaps, it's this particular forum of people who lifted your spirit. Can you cite one Tao quote that you found re-assuring?

Thank you for a good time. I enjoyed playing with you.

et-thoughts: You are right if/when god denotes the devil and the devil denotes God... your are wrong if/when God denotes God then The perfect ways of God is actually the Tao Kaaazuo: Chapter 1 of Tao Te Ching says the God that denotes God is et’s God but not the eternal God. et’s God is part of human culture in various forms according to one’s mindset. It’s like a malware implanted in your software to make you do all sorts of self-reassuring things like kneel and pray, do taichi, be one with nature, avoid meat, cultivate chi for mental sex, meditate – all kinds of stuff that your dog would not do no matter how hard you train it. Is it because the dog is stupid? Et: The deceiver would like everyone to think that its easier to avoid the devil than to follow God... or that there isn't a devil nor a God...or that its all the same... or that nothing matters... or a bunch of other delusions... K: Avoiding the Devil matters because living in freedom from human folly matters a lot. Cleaning your hard-drive to get rid of malwares is critical to learning the art of living. Being Christ-like is important. Following et’s God is not. Et: Why do people want to be good ? why do people who want to be good are no good... maybe the bad want to be good to be like the good who need not want anymore to be what they already are... K: There are no good people. There are only bad people wanting to be good. How do bad people know what is good when good people never existed before? There is no model to follow. So, the bad people invent their idea of good. But Lao Tzu said that the good that can be told is not the eternal good. It is just the bad people’s opinion of good. Et: I believe you that Lao Tzu said 'that'... question is 'that' actually true... You said stuff that evidently did not correspond to what actually be true... that you said stuff makes it be true that you said such stuff but the veracity of the stuff you said depends on the veracity of the stuff... not what you say about it... K: Everything that Lao Tzu said reflects the actuality of reality. This is to say that the Tao Te Ching accurately documents human nature – the nature of evil. This is my take. If you disagree, then let’s examine it Chapter by Chapter to find out if I am correct. Et: this thread centers on the freedom of thought... evidently some beliefs are ingrained to the point it inhibits the freedom of certain individuals... K: All beliefs inhibit freedom of thought. Consequently, no individual is free. A belief is like a software code written into the program which is a mindset. If you hold the belief that God exists, then you will follow God in accordance with the code written into your mindset. The atheist has his own code of behavior. He is as stuck as the God-following idiot he berates. ,

Kaaazuo: The perfect way to live is not to follow the way of God but to avoid the way of the Devil, or the Devil’s Tao. et-thoughts: So you claim that the perfect way to live stems avoidance and from the Devil rather than embracing the perfect ways of God... K: Quite right. The perfect ways of God is actually the Tao of the Devil. et: Oh by the way the beliefs that God's Tao cannot be perceived is like the belief that persons cannot change what they believe. It is possible to perceive God's Tao with God's grace... to know that you will have to ask God to help you perceive it. In a way it is impossible for us to perceive it, and thanks to God, who can do everything even what is impossible for us, it becomes possible for us to perceive it... K: It is easier to avoid the Devil; and yet, no one does this. Everyone wants to follow God because everyone wants to be good. Lao Tzu said that people who want to be good are no good.

et-thoughts: BUT REMEMBER YOU PROMISED... to continue with the adventure to the bitter end... you even said that Should you react like a dumb beast from the lowest part of Taoist Hell, then do the right thing and beat the shit out of you. will go get my BATANA... in the mean time lets consider the rest of your last post. kaaazuo: I said (in Post No: 110) that you could beat me if I reacted like a dumb beast to any adverse judgment that you pass on me. Have I responded like a crazed lunatic going off the deep end yet? Besides, you have not even passed any judgment on me at all. So, I don’t see why you are going for your BATANA. Seems like you are behaving like the professor who nailed you. et: The Tao - The way - is profoundly spiritual... the art of living - the art of doing - the art of thinking - the art of loving stem from the original perfect ways. K: You are correct about the art of thinking. I cannot continue the discussion because I am unable to follow your line of reasoning. Your thinking sucks – no art. You are all over the place. We began with my assertion that it is not possible to change a person's belief. - Indeed we did You said that it is possible. - Indeed I said something to that effect et: So, we will just have to agree to disagree - WHY? because you want to you hang onto your belief rather than recognize a different alternative as being true... let me go get my BATANA.... K: You see. You are telling lies. It was you who asserted that it is possible to change a person’s belief when I pointed out that this is not possible. Below is the evidence: Post No: 108 by kaaazuo The insights I gained from the interactions is that people cannot change the beliefs that they hold. Post No: 109 by et FWIIW people CAN change the beliefs that they hold --- its can be quite a challenging process AND it CAN be done... if you want I will share my story and experience with this... Post No: 111 by et it is possible to change what one believes its just a bit complicated... even now the belief that there can't be identical copies still call to me... Perhaps, I should be the one to get my BATANA and beat the shit out of you. et: The descriptions I see of Tao are just like the descriptions I see of God... as far as I know nothing makes me think that... well we could say God's grace makes me think that ... then again the framing is a bit curious for ultimately each chooses what to think ... based on the principle that we be free to choose what to do, think, feel, say, etc... K: Each can choose what to think but that does not mean that the thinking is worth a damn. The reason why Jesus had to die on the cross is because our way of thinking is shitty and it causes us to live like ignorant beasts. There are nutjobs here who see themselves as wonderful human beings. And if I get my BATANA and beat the shit out of them, they will call the mods. et: BTW "the way to live in freedom from human folly" is to follow the perfect way to live... and thats to follow the way of God... of course one would have to figure out 'what is the perfect way to live'... note that this does not say what is the perfect way to live according to me... the perfect way to live is the same thing as saying the way of God. K: The perfect way to live is not to follow the way of God but to avoid the way of the Devil, or the Devil’s Tao. The Tao Te Ching shows you how to do it. Chapter 1 tells us that God’s Tao cannot be perceived and warns us about all that glitter is not real eternal gold. So, every time you feel you have found the way of God, take out that BATANA and give yourself a good whack on the head! It could just straighten out your thinking.

et, I am afraid I cannot continue with this discussion because I am unable to follow your line of reasoning. We began with my assertion that it is not possible to change a person's belief. You said that it is possible. So, we will just have to agree to disagree - you hang onto your belief and I hold on to mine. Ok? Let's move along to another point: your belief that God exists. What makes you think that Tao equates God? Tao in Chinese means "way". It carries the same meaning as "do" use for various martial arts forms like Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do, Karate Do or Bruce Lee's Jeet Kwon Do. There is nothing spiritual about this word. Any action that is perfectly executed is beautiful and an art form. Someone said that the greatest of all arts is the art of living. To my mind, the Tao Te Ching speaks to the art of living. It talks about the way to live in freedom from human folly. Jesus, according to the Gospels that chronicled his life, endeavored to teach about this way through his own actions. He had the Tao, the way, the art of living.

Kaaazuo: What was that belief you held to be true that was changed? et-thoughts: That identical copies of knowledge existed in different minds. That one was right and the other was wrong. K: So, the above belief that you hold to be true has changed. What is your new belief now and why did you replace the old belief with the new one? K: Can you tell me one thing that you think is right? Be direct and specific. Just tell me one thing that you think is absolutely right in your view. et: Sure God exists. K: Can you define what you mean by the word “God”? Why do you think you are right in maintaining this viewpoint? The mind cannot be a bit of a metaphor. You are wrong here. et: Maybe the wording I used was a bit off. But the mind can be a metaphor... you claim I am wrong and I may be or I may be right... K: Well, you are definitely wrong based on the definition of the word metaphor. I believe the mind is a metaphor. You either agree that the mind is a metaphor or disagree and affirm that it is not a metaphor. If you are not sure, then say so. You can also question me and ask why I believe that the mind is a metaphor and does not exist like the brain does. I have an obligation to explain the basis of my belief et: The mind may be real and be an idea that has something to do with thinking and a bit more... it does exist... K: You cannot assert that the mind exist without explaining why you hold that belief. If you do that, then it becomes a doctrine founded on blind faith. This blocks inquiry and ends all further discussion.

What was that belief you held to be true that was changed? Are you referring to attitudes? Do you mean to say that a person is predisposed to perceive a matter in the way according to his attitude? For example, a pessimistic person would see the downside of any proposition; and an emotionally unstable person would view every comment as a personal attack? It would indeed be a simple matter if all things are either black or white and everyone agrees with the distinction between the two colors. Right and wrong is something else especially with Americans who celebrate the right to be different even when they are downright crazy. Can you tell me one thing that you think is right? Be direct and specific. Just tell me one thing that you think is absolutely right in your view. The mind cannot be a bit of a metaphor. You are wrong here. The mind is either a metaphor or it is real. You are either awake or asleep. A woman is either pregnant or she is not. Both states are mutually exclusive. In stating that the mind is a metaphor, I meant that the mind is an idea, a figure of speech. The mind has nothing to do with thinking because it doesn’t exist. Rest assured, this adventure will not end bitterly because I am not emotionally unstable and pathologically defensive. If you can prove me wrong even once, I would pay you the respect I accord to the teacher of all teachers: Confucius. This is the challenge.

I googled it and found that it is an internet slang and there are thousands of these abbreviations like HMU, WOOT, etc. Below is from Wikionary: FWIW for what it's worth for whoever is wondering from what I've witnessed The mind is a metaphor. It does not exist the way a brain does. This is my belief. I promise you that I will continue with the adventure to the bitter end. I get the drift. No further clarification needed. So, let’s cut out the foreplay and get to the adventure.

What is FWIIW people? I am impressed with your conviction. Sure, do share your story. I am always keen to learn. You can be my professor. Let's keep this simple. I know what a mindset is. I am not attached to any and can chuck it if it gets in the way. I have to adopt a mindset, or several, to get around in daily life for practical reasons. Right now, I am assuming the mindset of a person called Kaaazuo to converse with you. Some illusions cannot be chucked away such as the illusion of falling off a tall building or getting hit by a truck. Or the mods coming to get me if I judge your character against your wish. Go ahead, share your story. I am always open to learning; and please feel free to form judgments - no matter how adverse -about me at any point. Should I react like a dumb beast from the lowest part of Taoist Hell, then do the right thing and beat the shit out of me. I don't want to come back as a dumb beast in the next life.

I am awaiting an awakening from some spell. It is the spell of being me. I know the truth that I am an illusion which was discovered by the Buddha. This truth doesn't awaken me from the cognitive illusion of the self. It only stops me from making the mistake of getting married three times. It also stops me from losing my temper every time someone rubs me the wrong way. It helps, but I am still trapped in the cognitive illusion of the spell. Yes, it is a fascinating adventure. The insights I gained from the interactions is that people cannot change the beliefs that they hold. There is no freedom of thought. There are only different mindsets. Each person has a mindset. This mindset is like a formatted hard disk. Every time it boots up, it is the same operating system functioning the same way. You cannot convince the person to change his mindset or beliefs which are already installed in his hard drive. That is why, in China, when the Emperor wanted social progress, he had people's heads chopped off so that the next generation can be implanted fresh new ideas. So, if you want to change peoples' beliefs, you will have to implement Mao Zedong's brutal Cultural Revolution. Americans believe they are evolved and capable of political debate. Good luck, I say.

We are all under the cognitive illusion's spell. Some welcome an awakening, others would kill if disturbed. The Buddha was lucky. Jesus was nailed. Lao Tze was smartest and took off to the Kun Lun mountains leaving an accursed and doomed life form to its own fate. You were not lucky with your professor and got nailed. Are you under the cognitive illusion's spell that there are people out there awaiting an awakening from their spells?

Ok, I hear you. You are off-limits to me. I will stay out of your flower patch. No problem.

Well, as you said we can't see body language when chatting on the internet and it is easy to misread intentions. So, you can be as judgmental too by using your values to assess what I say. We all make judgments all the time in order to relate. If we judge wrong, we step into on others toes and get whacked. That's life. I don't mind your getting all over my ass even though I see no call you to do that. And I won't retaliate. I know that you will get riled no matter how I react. Maybe we should not talk to each other if that's your preference. As for me, I would mess with anyone - including the devil - without losing it.