DreamBliss

I have changed my mind about beliefs: https://blisswriter.wordpress.com/2015/03/28/beliefs-get-in-the-way/

I am reading Anita Moorjani's, "Dying To Be Me", which is about the author, in a very late stage of cancer, coming to a point outside the physical body where she can see both her death, with the results of that, and what would happen if she continued to live. The author learns she will be healed if she decides to continue to live, and that is what happens. The cancer reverses itself from the moment she returns to her body. I have decided to believe in what Mrs. Moorjani shares, and I am taking the book to be a factual account. In it she tells of how she has adopted an inside-out view, so when something happens she doesn't look to the outside for answers, but instead takes some time to get centered, and by that she means feeling the center of oneness. She says this is important. I am paraphrasing here, so please do not take what I am saying to be word-for-word what she is saying, and critsize or judge her book on that alone. I am clumsily sharing this as briefly as I can, as I understand it. When she was out of her body she felt this oneness, and brought back that experience and feeling with her. She had what she is referring to as a NDE. As I understand it, this feeling of oneness is experienced in only two ways. Someone "wakes up", becoming enlightened. Or they die and come back. My question is how can I, at this moment, lacking either of these, have that same feeling of oneness? Not some unknown and uncertain time in the future by going to a cave or monastary somewhere and meditating until I loose my legs from lack of circulation. Or slicing my wriists so I can bleed to death and hopefully come back. How can I experience this sense of oneness, right now, in this moment? Is it even possible? I realize that by asking this here I am going from the outside in. I still need to work on that. I know I need to be myself, trust my inner guidance, listen to my heart, etc. I just don't see how I have access to anything relevant to my question. I guess I don't believe that I have the knowledge I seek inside me. I have no confidence it is there. The whole idea of just doing whatever feels right and groping my way through life based on hunches, intuition or my gut seems silly to me. As far as I am concerned I brought myself to this moment in time, and I don't think I have done a very good job. Somehow I will work on trusting myself. I know that is important here. DISCLAIMER: I am a selfish and self-centered bastard with a serious attitude problem. So if you need to be appreciated for taking the time to come in here and post, trying to help me, if you expect thanks or a virtual pat on the back I may disappoint you. Better to serve, without expectation, if you feel compelled to do so. If you are going to serve, by posting, with an expectation of anything, you may be better off not posting. Not trying to be unfriendly here, just attempting to avoid misunderstandings. In general, even though it may not seem like it, even though the words and what you read between the lines seems to say otherwise, I do appreciate your posts, I thank you for taking the time to do so, and I will happily buy you a beer someday if we ever meet in person.

... and to find my purpose, presumably also what you are referring to as my work, I must be myself, which allows it to unfold. The question, that I have not yet been able to answer, is what is it that I would enjoy dong, love doing, for the rest of my physical life, to constantly seek to perfect it, which I understand is a state of constant improvement? I am paraphrasing from Jonathon Livingston Seagull here, which, to me, contained the clearest teachings on this. For the main character of the story, flying was his work. I also noticed that flying came easily and naturally to him. The problem is that I have no idea what that is for me . I can write, yes. I can teach, yes. But I do not have the kind of love for these things that would cause me to want to spend the rest of my life perfecting them. They come naturally to me, yes. But I don't have that kind of passion for them. Whenever I think about this I have this feeling of hopelessness, of despair. I feel it would be easier to kill myself than to struggle through life with the very serious handicap of not knowing, not having identified, remembered or realized, that thing I enjoy doing, I love doing, I would gladly spend the rest of my life perfecting. Oddly enough, if I could fly, I think I could be very passionate about that. What the heck is that supposed to mean anyway? Humans can't fly! I don't mean via machinery either, to be clear. I mean like this: I have a lot of interest in the fringe science stuff, flying, teleportation, etc. Not very practical. How do you pursue a subject of interest like that? I also have an interest in inventing, mechanical engineering. But once again, not practical. By that I mean not something I can pursue at this time in my life. So maybe I just haven't realized or remembered what it is I love to do, my work?

You are correct. Again I apologize. I went too far with that. I critisized and judged. I failed to practice what I preach. I failed to maintain my practice, to keep up with my intention, to neither critisize or judge. Even now I am critiszing and judging myself. I have no answers and no more words on this. I will simply apologize to anyone else who posts similarly.

Same for LoA. Belief and faith are the keys that unlock the door.

Nungali I apologize. You obviously have had experience with what you refer to as pop LoA. You obviously have a reason to see it the way you do. I admit that, if compared to you, I have no ground to stand on. I admit that you have more experience in this than I do. I don't know if it will make you feel any better, but I am right with you in regards to the teacher sitting there trying to manifest some sort of protection for the children, instead of actualy doing anything about it. I remember on the news some time ago I heard about some Christian family that was trying to pray their children well instead of actually taking them to a doctor, that in fact they didn't believe in doing that, and I can't remember exactly what happened but I think the children died. Although it s critism and judgment, I find such actions despicable and unintelligent. If modern medical care is needed, if it is life threatening, then it should be used. It is there for a reason. Very few people are at the level where they can use their faith, whatever belief system they hold, to heal themselves. Even if a parent is at that level, their children may not be. Any resistance can interfere with faith. Better to admit one's lack of faith and use the resources at hand. Belief systems should never get in the way of common sense. Sometimes prayer is needed, sometimes action is needed, I think the key is to work from the inside out, not let external circumstances have power over you, but not ignoring external circumstances at the risk of your own safety or the safety of others. I want to clarify one more thing... LoA and my course of action of throwing out the belief of the subconsious mind have nothing to do with each other. I read something in LoA, and it made me realize that I had adopted beliefs that, in my mind, did not empower me. So I made my choice. But I was not following the instructions in an LoA book. To be clear: LoA does not teach against the belief of the subconsious mind.

From what I can determine Nungali, as well as possibly others, are against what they call pop LoA. But I wonder... Have they gone to pop LoA conferences? Do they even know what it is they are defining? In what way do they define this, based on what personal expreience? If they have gone to pop LoA conferences, have they gone to whatever they think of as its opposite? Who exactly did they see? Who exactly, in their mind is not pop LoA in the LoA teachers? I honestly feel that those that have posted against LoA have a stick up their arse regarding it, but I think they put it there, that they have never really had any personal exprerience at all with these teachings. By personal experience I mean they, themselves, not 3rd party. I also mean that they spent the time to actually apply the teachings and lived them to discover their veracity. Not just looked at them through the lens of their criticsm and judgment. But ultimately what does it matter? I am not trying to convert anyone here. I am only a proponent of empowerment and being open-minded, and everything I have done is to that end. If people do not want to be empowered or open-minded, well that's their business. I admit I struggle with the teachings. I feel I am handicapped because I have no idea what the hell this sense of oneness is, which seems like a necassary ingredient to living these teachings. But the only people, as far as I know, who exprerience this are those who are enlightened, or who have died and come back to life. I will continue along my chosen path. I have found no reason anywhere in this thread to adopt the belief system of the subconsious mind. I will hobble along, limited as I am, at least in this moment, and figure things out for myself. That is, afterall, part of my practice. Somehow I have to think from the inside out, not the outside in like I have been. Somehow I have to have faith and trust in the things I have decided to believe. Somehow I have to be myself, and in being myself, allow my purpose to unfold. So I will invest my energy there, not quabbling over belief systems or symantics. For the record, I do appreciate that so many have cared enough to come in here and post, even if has been in disagreement. This forum is a good community and I appreciate that I was led to it. But it is just like a culture someone may end up growing up in. Sooner or later the time comes to cast off the collective beliefs of the group and go your own way. For me that time is now.

Everyone Else, Primarily Nungali I can not speak from any experience, as you seem to be saying you have. But I think that lumping all LoA and "New Age" teachers into one group is like calling all Muslims Jihadist's. Do I have the right word there? Very soon you will go out into the world, and every time you see someone with darker skin carrying a heavy backpack you will be wondering of they are carrying a bomb. I am sure you are intelligent enough to see the issue here. Likewise you can not assume that all LoA teachers, and all "New Age" teachers, are out to out their hands down your pants, figuratively or literally. Anymore than you can assume all Catholic priests assault boys and all North Koreans are communists. You already know that in every belief system, every single one, there are frauds and those who take advantage of others. You will find them even in Buddhist temples and masquerading as Yogi's in India. But you also must know that in every belief system, every single one, there are those who are genuine and pure, motivated by love. It is probably a good idea to be very careful with the criticizing, judging and labeling. Because sooner or later you will not be able to see beyond the criticism, judgment or labels. Your perception is not clear, your mind is not open, you are not receptive, which means that you are ultimately resistant. Which, as I have explained before, only gives power to that which you are resisting. When you can see things clearly, without criticism, judgment or labels, your perception will be clear, and you can be non-resistant. To make this more clear... Your belief in the subconscious mind, and your disbelief in LoA teachings, appears to matters far too much to you, and that is only to your detriment, of which I am sure you are fully aware. You can fight me (and others like me) trading blow for blow, or you can use my energy against me and kick my ass. The choice is yours.

Stosh You are asking me for atonement to go along with my confession. Very well, how shall I atone? Before you reply, consider that in requiring any action from me, you are, in effect, attempting to control my behavior. Why would you want to do this? Because somewhere, deep down inside (call it the subconsious mind if you wish) you believe that you will be happy if I both confess and atone. For all the collective critisms of LoA posted here there is one thing I am confident they have right. That our happiness be found outside of our circumstances. If your happiness depends on the actions of others, you will never be truly happy. You will be constantly seeking to control your circumstances or others to make your life experience more desirable to you. I think that is an even worse way to go about finding happiness than LoA. Find your happiness independant of your control or the actions of others. Stop chasing fool's gold and make room for the real thing, true joy, found only in being who you are, not in how you think you should be, not how others tell you to be. In being yourself allow your purpose to unfold. That is where true freedom and true happiness lay.

Unfortunately, you caught me at a bad time. I am not very high vibration or spiritual right now. Going through some things and am not acting as well as I feel I should, as well as I generally pratice regularly to act. And yes, I know I am making excuses for myself. Like I said, bad time. I guess when you called me a child and asked if I was 10 I took exception, that is why my repsonse was condenscing and sarcastic. Listen we have to break this chain-of-pain here and stop critising and judging. We're like brothers bickering. I may not agree with much of what has been said, but I do appreciate it. I am grateful and thankful. I received exactly what I asked for. I have no complaints at all. When I tell you that you don't need to defend me or stick your neck out for me I do appreciate the gesture. But I say that for you, not for me. Because if you defend someone or stick your neck out for them with an expectation of gratitude then that is not the right way to serve another. If we serve another, in any capacity, is must be without expectation of any kind. We serve when called, when, in the natural flow of our lives, the opportunity to serve arrives. I am not expressing this very well, I am sorry. But it is to your detriment to do something for someone with an expectation of how they will respond. Better to give your gift and walk away, your reward in the giving, not in their response to it. I hope you can see where I am trying to point you here. Also keep in mind that when you defend the helpless princless you reinforce her helplessness. You reinforce the victim role for her, and the saving, prince charming (or Mario) role for yourself. But she may not be a princess, and you may not be prince charming. Better for each of you to be who you really are, not someone you are not. Nothing I have said here, with the possible exception of my condescending response, was intended to hurt, and I am not even sure that was. More like I was trying to make you aware of what you had said that invoked that response from me. In any case,, as far as I am aware, I have no desire to hurt anyone, or be hurt by anyone. As I may have said elsewhere, I am not a masochist, I do not enjoy giving or receiving pain.

Thank you.

I am deeply sorry that I did not give you the attention you wanted. I will rectify that mistake immediately, and try to find this challenge, to give you a proper response. I appreciate you taking the time to defend me, but it is not necassary. There is nothing here to defend. I presume this is the challenge? You may have a point there. In the teachings of Abraham, if memory serves, we read that much of the things we manifest into our lives are done by default, unconsiously. As I understand it, we think a certain way about certain things over and over again, and at some point we are no longer aware of those thoughts, we are not consious of the thinking that is putting resistance between us and what we wish to manifest. So it certainly seems to prove what the majority of you are saying here. But there is one small problem... When we talk about the subconscious mind we are referring to a hard to access or hidden part of the mind. With what Abraham is talking about it is very easy, by just practicing awareness of our thoughts, to become aware of these ways of thinking and change them. That means these thoughts do not fit the typical model of the subconsious mind, which requires special processes, techniques and tools to access. To my mind that means these ways of thinking are not in some seperate area of the mind, but exist instead inside of consiousness, while being outside of awareness. In other words we are not normally aware of these habbitual ways of thinking. But we are not unconscious of them. I guess that means I disagree with Abraham in this area, but then again, I am not sure what Abraham means by unconscious. I will have to continue my studies.

I feel the need to add something here. A confession. I forgot something important that I knew. I am sure I am not alone here. We have a realization about something, we make changes accordingly, but then that old way of thinking sneaks up on us. I am fairly certain of what one poster will call that... I got defensive in this thread. In other words, I became resistant, and I know better. Resistance is what kills you when you are fall from a great hight, are stabbed or shot. The practice is to allow shit to pass right through. There I go again, calling it shit, more resistance. You can't have a bias or feelings. The practice is to admit, allow and accept. To be open and receptive. To not critisize or judge. I have done probably a little of each of this in response to everyone, in my perception, trying to convince me that the subconsious mind exists. This is no better than the Christians and the Muslims killing each other over which religion is the Truth. You can not be my enemy unless I apply that label to you, unless I see you as my enemy, perceieve you to be my enemy. A better word would be opposition. I don't think of anyone here as my enemy. But there are those that have opposing points of view, or perhaps points of view that are complimentary which I do not realize yet, blind men feeling different parts of the elephant. Anyhow if I see you as my opposition, then I have resistance, then I give you power over me, and by giving you power over me I reinforce the undesired viewpoint. How in the hell I keep forgetting this I don't know. Again I am fairly certain I know what one poster will say... So no more resistance. Time for admit, allow and accept. Time for openess and receptivity. Time to stop critisizng and judging. You have your viewpoint, I have mine. I don't have to defend my viewpoint, it isn't worth defending anyway. I also don't have to subscribe to yours. From this point on I am non-resistant to your various points of view. I have made my decision, and am free to change it if it proves to be false. I will hold my belief loosely, so that I can let it go if it is no longer worth holding. But the choice to do so, that decison, is mine, and mine alone. Namaste!

Sigh... Very well Marblehead. I did sort of promise to wander through the maze of Numbskull's... I mean Nungali's questions. But I am breaking the part of my promise that says I will do so consciously, because damn it, I just don't feel like it! Nope. You have completely lost me here. I believe it was a conscious subversion of the philo... Blah Blah Blah... Discussion. So, according to you and solely in your perception I am a cheater. You know, I used to play Halo 2 on the Xbox 360. I got really good at using these special spots in the maps that would propel me to otherwise inaccessible places. They were called superjumps. I have always been someone who enjoys finding their way out of a level. I enjoyed getting out of some of the Half-life 2 maps as well. Others, playing against me, might be tempted to call me a cheater. But I feel no guilt or shame at all. In fact I am proud of the few feats in my life I have been able to accomplish, whether or not I was playing by someone's rule book. I enjoy pushing the boundaries and going beyond what others say I can or should. Fuck borders, limitations, rules and restrictions! What all that has to do with this thread I have no clue.

The light is awareness. The implication is that things may exist outside of awareness. The implication of that implication is that if things exist outside of awareness, then the subconscious mind can exist. The presumption is that since the subconscious mind can exist, it does exist. Also that it makes no difference to me, in the end, if it exists or not, because I am not aware of it. That is not proof of the existence of the subconscious mind. That is only proof of the possibility of its existence. This sword is two-edged. If there is a possibility that the subconscious mind exists, there is also a possibility that it does not. We will never know for sure, because our flashlight can only reveal the parts of the cave its light shines on. Really then it does not matter to us if there is some hidden or hard to access part of our mind, because we are in the cave, not outside, our awareness is limited to the inside of the cave, that is the extant of our world, of what we know, and of that world, of what we know, we can only see little bits of it at a time with our awareness. In fact we can't even really know for sure if we are in a cave or deep in the dark recesses of the ancient dwarven city of Moria, because we can only see so much. We shine our awareness around, revealing bits and pieces, and from that construct what becomes our realty. It is dark and rocky, we must be in a cave! Our world becomes the label, "cave." That is all we know, but because our awareness isn't bright enough, we never have the complete picture. So is it better to switch off the flashlight, let our eyes adjust to the darkness, and stop defining our reality by what the light of our awareness reveals? Stop presuming we know where we are or what the truth is because we can't see it all anyway? Or should we go on some quest to light up this space, so we can finally get the whole picture? I don't know what the better course of action is. But I am not going to start believing in things simply because other people tell me they exist. Until I am able to see this space for myself I am not going to adopt any beliefs about it. I see your point. I guess what is going on here is that you (speaking collectively of all who I perceive to be against my decision) are trying to convince me (again in my perception) that the subconscious mind exists. But as far as I can tell none of you have presented any compelling evidence, as to A. What exactly is the benefit of believing in the existence of some aspect of your mind outside consciousness? And B. How exactly do you know the subconscious mind exists? What proof do you have? I guess I feel that since you seem to be disagreeing with my decision, or finding fault with it, or finding it insufficient or limiting, that the burden of proof rests with you as to exactly why your belief in this hidden, hard to access part of the mind is better than my current disbelief in it. In other words, I have not been convinced, despite your very best efforts. But the purpose of this thread has been accomplished. I stated what I was going to do, I got the feedback and various viewpoints I was looking for. So thank you, all of you, for giving me your various perspectives on my decision and this subject! I appreciate all the energy, effort and time that went into your replies. The overall consensus seems to be that the majority of you believe in some aspect of the mind outside consciousness, that you do not find a belief in this to be disempowering, and furthermore, that my chosen disbelief in it is limiting at the least, and self destructive at the most. Also that my disbelief is not empowering at all, and is actually denial. Do I have that about right? I guess that's it from me for now.

I was referring to his/her use of the cave example. I had a pretty good idea where they were trying to go with that, so I put up the "Dead End" sign. Dreaming is not imagination, and it can be a conscious experience. That is what Lucid Dreaming is all about. Becoming conscious in your dreams, aware that you are dreaming. I'll walk through the maze of the rest of your questions later, consciously.

Of course I missed the point! I wasn't aiming at it! I consciously chose to not play the game 4bsolute started here. So, I hit exactly what I was aiming at!

I must nitpick here... For me imagination is conscious visualization. It has nothing at all to do with the subconscious or unconscious mind.

In that case, I would certainly explore the cave, but what is outside the cave has no interest to me as I am not aware of it. As far as I am concerned, it does not exist. Also what is outside the cave has no effect on me while I am inside the cave. For you, using this example, you know the outside exists, and your point depends on that. However the person in your illustration knows only about the inside of the cave, and the fact they don't believe in anything outside of it has no detrimental effect. Once they stumble outside they will change their beliefs:

One problem with this analogy... To enter the cave you had to be outside first. So you already know the outside exists. You can prove it simply by stepping back outside. So, were I in your shoes, I could not, and would not, claim there is no outside because its right there, outside the cave. In this case denial is not empowering.

It sounds more like he's in Schrodingers Box. Is he alive or dead? Or both?

Everyone you encounter "out there" is typically either reflecting something at you or teaching you something. When you put any sort of negative focus on another person, through actions or words, they will reflect your perception, but you will not be seeing the Truth of them, you can not through the murk of your perception, manifested through your negative actions, thoughts or words. So they will appear to be exactly as you think they are, they will act as you expect them to act, their responses to your words, what they say, all pretty much what you expected. They key is to come to another "out there" with no criticism, expectations, judgment or preconceptions. To be open and receptive to them, taking them exactly as they are, the same way each moment must be taken, one at a time, exactly as it is.

About belief and denial... I want to set the record straight here. I do not believe in Santa Claus. But I do believe the world would be a much better place with a jolly fat guy in a red suit giving gifts to children on Christmas. I want Santa Claus to be real. Just as I want Harry Potter magic to be real. But so far, in my experience, neither the magic of Father Christmas or Harry Potter is real. This non-belief is not denial. Denial implies a closing. A person in denial will continue to believe what they want despite the proof. A person in denial of the the existence of Santa Claus would just see a trespasser in a red suit that had come down the chimney and started to place presents under the tree. Even if they watched Santa take off in his sled they would choose to believe they must be dreaming. They are closed off to believing in Santa Claus. When I say I do not believe in the subconscious mind there is no closing implied. I disbelieve in Santa Claus and the subconscious mind for the same reasons. They are both myths as far as I am concerned. Because I see no proof of Santa Claus' existence, and I see no proof of this aspect of my mind that is somehow below consciousness. I choose (that is the key here, it is my choice) to not believe in these things. But if Santa Claus were to come down my chimney and put presents under my tree I would drop my disbelief in him. I would, in fact, be happy to see that this kind of magic is real in the physical world I currently inhabit. Likewise if I experience for myself the reality of some aspect of the mind outside of my conscious mind I will drop my disbelief in it and instead believe in it. Another analogy is the email subscription list. I can subscribe to certain newsletters, and I can cancel my subscription. It is my choice to subscribe, not subscribe, or cancel a subscription. As far as any aspect of the mind below, beyond or outside the conscious mind, I have unsubscribed. I used to be subscribed to this belief, I am no longer subscribed. Nothing you can say will sell me a subscription! Santa Claus and the subconscious mind are free to exist if they in fact do. I am not saying they can not exist. I am not denying their existence (or rather the possibility of their existence) as the existence of both things can not be proved. I simply do not believe in their existence. There is a difference, and that is if I am closed or open in my mind, and my mind is open. I am not living in denial, I am choosing what I believe. As I am choosing my responses to my life circumstances. As, eventually, I will even choose the thoughts I think.

When we start talking about archetypes, we are talking about the collective consciousness. That larger pool that contains all human knowledge. Probably how the race collectively access the mind of Source. That's where this stuff comes from, it is not pre-programmed into you. You may have a particular archetype or symbol you adopt from childhood, but there is no programming of any universal types. That is just there in humanity's collective consciousness. So if you go out into the woods, and you are not armed or a hunter, and see a big, drooling, hungry, slobbering wolf you will likely find yourself very afraid. You will also likely need a change of underwear when it starts growling at you. But your fear response is not entirely your own. Part of that comes from that pool of collective human consiosuness, hearkening back to when wolves made a meal out of us.