DreamBliss

I have always been interested in this subject but never bothered to crack a book. Yet I found this video: I am left with a question... If a holographic (meaning non-solid) wall could be produced such that it could not be distinguished from a real wall, would people actually be able to pass through it, or would they be stopped by it? If people would be stopped by it, then that means anything we could project (hologram) has the potential of becoming what we would call real. If we could build a holodeck, it could become as "real" a place as anywhere else. Then there is a whole discussion about how "real" walls are not really solid either, that both a non-solid holographic wall and a concrete wall are really just projections of waves at varying frequencies. After that we would have to talk about how initially our realistic holographic wall may be solid for one person and non-solid for another, making the concept in cartoons of running off a cliff and standing in the air not so silly after all, I mean if we don't know we can't do it, what is to stop us from doing it? Thoughts? In layman's terms, of course so we can all understand it.

I was recommended, "All The Rain Promises and More" by this author: http://www.amazon.com/David-Arora/e/B001KMASY0/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1454756772&sr=1-1 Anybody use these books?

OK, now that I have had my fun... (metaphorically rolling up sleeves...) I am observing a disturbing occurrence of attempting to define others by their viewpoints, as if we could know someone by figuring out what box it is easiest to stuff them in. I am struggling with the words, but it has also become obvious to me that there is a sense of a belief system that has found its way into this subject. Whether you believe in math or not, let's not turn it and science into a religion. Also let's stop throwing the ists around, OK? In reference to: Only humans give this meaning, otherwise it has none. It is a model that (so far) seems to fit the relationship between mass and energy. It is a concept that (as yet) has neither been entirely disproven or proven.

But I can see the value of math in describing certain things. Trying to write in words some complex physics equation would probably be a lot clunkier and less elegant than e=MC2

When I said what I did about math, I was trying to avoid stuff like this (additional material is in the comments): That is what you get when you think you can boil the universe down to numbers, which is a human construct like language. The way I see it, the universe is mathematical to humans because when human scientists study the universe they expect it to be mathematical in nature. If the D'ni from the Myst series existed, their scientists would have expected the universe to boil down to the language they use to create entire worlds.

I can allow for this viewpoint, but I have some harsh words to say about it. There are those who have said this much more eloquently, but I will say it like this: Mathematics is mental masturbation. Until mathematics can be used to define God, it is of little more use than our beliefs, thoughts and words about whatever or whoever this energy or entity may be. As a result mathematics is also of little use in concretizing "reality." Try using it, for example, to detail the experience of a banana. You can no more use math than you can use words.

I think your examples are flawed. I wil demonstrate my theory, why I think this is so: Place Thich Nhat Hanh in a dark room with an obstruction on the floor and have him walk through it. Record the results. Once he has finished, place any busy New York lawyer into the same room. Record the results. Compare what you have recorded. You will see that the results will be different. Master Hanh will not have stubbed his toe, because he will have walked through the room completely aware and conscious, fully present. The lawyer will likely have not only stubbed his or her toe, but also fell on their face, depending if they rushed through the room, impatient to get on with the next thing, or walked through it haltingly. Either way there would be no awareness or consciousness, they would not be fully present. There is that in our physical forms which senses things around us. This non-physical sense gives us a sort of knowing about any location we are in. Someone fully aware, conscious and present is more in tune to this sense. They will respond to what it tells them. Someone unaware, unconscious and not present is not tuned into this sense, and ignores any alarm bells going off that are informing them of an obstruction in the floor. What this means is that we know, but may not know we know, if there is a hole in the floor or not, or an obstruction or not. Even when all physical senses are not used, we still have a sense about our location and its surroundings. No enlightened being has ever fell into an unseen hole or stubbed their toe over an obstruction on the floor. But just about every harried, rushing, unaware, unconscious and non-present person in New York has. When I used the word know in my original post, I meant those things we have beliefs about and say we know. Walls and floors being solid is something we "know." We have beliefs we have adopted, learned behaviors, experience, that no matter what science tells us, proves to us the solidity of a concrete floor or ceiling. I would go so far as to say we don't even interact with the concrete floor or ceiling at all, only our beliefs about it. Furthermore, the concrete floor and ceiling respond to our beliefs. In some way we affect them and make them solid to us. However we have no such knowing about a realistic, projected surface. So we don't know we can or can not walk through it, because we have not encountered a realistic hologram yet. At least I haven't. If we have no beliefs to interact with about some new thing (meaning new to the human race, not just new to us) it seems to me it is likely we will interact with the new thing as it is, at least until we have developed beliefs about it. Likely they would be that we could walk through a holographic image but not through a concrete wall. Then the question is... What happens if we can control the solidity of the hologram? Does the beliefs about the solidity of the hologram on the part of those observing those interacting with the hologram affect it so that it becomes solid? What if we have four identical holographic walls and only one of them is made solid, but nobody knows which one it is? What if we raised a child in a house with a realistic holographic wall between them and some room, but never told them about it? Then later introduced a concrete wall that looks the same, leading to yet another room, again never telling them about it? Never observing it either, never knowing when they are interacting with the walls, so we can not affect them? What of someone came, unknown to us, and switched the walls? So the one the child has come to "know" is non-solid is now a real concrete wall, while the other one that we "know" is solid is now non-solid? We really need to stop assuming things and to start asking more questions. This video demonstrates very well how we learn something then assume it is always true, without ever investigating or questioning it:

Hey those books look perfect for my trip, thank you for the links!

...and none of this has to do with the subject of this thread! OK, here are the books currently on my list: Pharmacotheon By Jonathan Ott Hallucinogenic Plants of North America By Jonathan Ott Pihkal By Alexander Shulgin Tihkal By Alexander Shulgin The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants By Christian Ratsch and Albert Hofmann Plants of the Gods By Richard Evans Schultes, Albert Hofmann and Christian Rätsch The Dictionary of Sacred and Magical Plants By Christian Rätsch I still need to find some pocket-sized reference books to add to it though. Any suggestions? Any thoughts on these titles?

Muad'dib! Muad'dib! Muad'dib!

I'm voting for Trump!

We appear to have a Lovecraftian in our midst... Personally, I think Barney the Dinosaur is the antichrist: Shudder...

OK... I was walking outside today, along a path we have going through a meadow, and due to all the rain we have had moss is covering everything. In the moss I noticed tiny brown mushrooms, and I realized that I have not made my intentions here very clear. I will do so now... The reason I started this thread and am asking for reference materials is because I want to spend my time on the road identifying and learning about the various plants I encounter. I have no intention to try any of these plants. I would not touch those brown mushrooms outside beyond what is needed to identify them, that is the most I would do with them. I want to be sure I am properly identifying things before I even consider harvesting and using them. I don't think this has much to to do with reverence or respect. I don't necessarily see myself as greater than a plant, and I certainly don't see it as greater than me. A plant is a plant, a human is a human, different forms, same energy. In reality the plant is me and I am the plant, although I have not directly experienced this connection yet. I think it has to do with intelligence. No matter how desperate to escape the circumstances and situations of my life I may become, I am never going to be desperate enough to do something as stupid as to start eating plants I think are psychoactive. Whatever my intention is for using a plant, if I use one, it will be done with great care and only when I am certain I have the correct one for my purposes. I have to know with reasonable certainty. Running in the background at the same time, as demonstrated by this man Nungali mentioned, will be the knowledge I have not yet directly experienced that my body is not responding to the plant and its constituents. It is responding to my belief about the plant and those things that are in it. I have said it before, the one who masters this Truth can drink battery acid and it will have no effect on him. Of course even though such a person could do such a thing, in most cases they wouldn't. They take great care, both of themselves and others, as well as in harvesting plants, processing them and using them. Going beyond that I have come to realize that I literally can not be poisoned, unless it is in one of the ranges of experiences I have chosen for my life. For more on that, read this: https://blisswriter.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/own-your-life/ I guess at the root there is a respect here, but it is not the same respect a devout Christian has for God. It is hard for me to express exactly why I choose to be careful. Is it motivated by fear? By love? Just some default setting I was born with? Not sure. Just take away from this that I choose to be careful. That no matter what I may be ultimately using a plant or substance for, I will do so with great care. It will influence every action I take on my journey, whether physical or otherwise. I guess care taken in the process of choosing something, harvesting it and preparing it for use is my version of a ceremony. I think the energy present in this process becomes another element of the mix. I would not want careless, hateful or irresponsible energy in those things I prepare. I wonder if is not so much the poison that kills a victim but the hatred of the one who poisoned them! Maybe that's the difference between a substance that is normally considered a poison, and how it can also be used as a cure, if administered out of a deep caring or love.

I appreciate that Steve... So I stumbled on these: Indian Herbalogy of North America http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Herbalogy-North-America-Definitive/dp/0877736391/ A Handbook of Native American Herbs http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Native-American-Herbs-Healing/dp/0877736995/ Any thoughts?

I was just thinking last night that I don't want to be the loudest voice in the room. I am a little ashamed. I know that many of the people at this forum are more experienced than myself on many of these matters. All I have is a bouquet of plastic flowers (knowledge not yet directly experienced) I haven't been able to trade in for the real thing yet. So I apologize for my harsh tone and letting my ego sneak in here. My problem is I know what I am talking about, but I haven't yet experienced much of it. I'm going to come back here with some more links to books, and return to the main purpose of the thread. Going to step out of the way of everything else for now. I want to acknowledge that you all have made some very good points and I appreciate your caring, concern and feedback. Nothing you have written will fall on deaf eyes... Also Micheal I re-read what you said and I understand it now, thank you.

You tell me to make using psychoactive plants a celebration, yet in the next sentence you tell me that celebrating will make it meaningless and burn me out.

CAUTION! Effort (ego) ahead! Carry traction devices at all times... We have talked about this subject of effort or work VS allowing in other threads. I would say a true shaman is chosen and given the title. He or she does not earn it by effort (workshop anyone?) It is not something that is necassrily inherited and it is not a right. It is a calling, and the choice is there to answer it or hang up the phone. In my case I was caught so off-guard I didn't hang up the phone and close myself off from probably the best spiritual experiences I have had so far. Experiences which probably helped me leave my former Christian faith. Trying to become something by effort alone is very much like trying to drive your car without traction devices on a thick sheet of ice. You won't get anywhere that way.

??? You may wish to re-read this and make some clarifications...

Reverence 1. A feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration. 2. The outward manifestation of this feeling: to pay reverence. 3. A gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy. 4. The state of being revered, or treated with respect tinged with awe. 5. A title used in addressing or mentioning a member of the clergy (usually preceded by your or his). 6. To regard or treat with reverence; venerate: I copied this from Dictionary.com and placed in bold the words to which I wanted to draw your attention. It sounds to me like reverence = worship. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

No will-nilliness here. I may be casual, divergent and disrespectful (among other things) but I will not be careless, irresponsible or stupid. I may have said earlier that I will also be respectful, but only to a certain, limited, non-fear based, non-religious or reverential based, extent. As I said I can not explain myself. It is really nothing more than a feeling of rightness about it, a feeling I have been chosen, although for the life of me I have no idea why. It comes from, as you have seen me mention before, when I re-entered a dream for the first time and was met by a spirit animal. I was a Christian at the time, it was my first dream re-entry, and a fox was not a part of the original dream. Suffice it to say I was caught completely off-guard. There were many inner journeys after that as well as meetings with other spiritual entities. I have had no formal training in any of this. I hope to return to the practices, and to find or be found by a proper teacher (not a workshop.) Besides, I am far too old to play with sticks and go looking for power rocks. Also I am far too poor to buy the title of shaman...

Hoah boy... Can you hear me sighing way over here? I was responding to this, "Yes, and to gain the knowledge of how to use it properly requires an apprenticeship to an experienced curandera. It's not something one can learn from books. One needs to be invited and introduced and, if accepted, then spend a lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits. It is not to be taken casually." That is the "leave it to the authorities" (or dogmatic, if you prefer) vibe I was referring to and sensing from your words. I was trying to express that training from an experience curandera or shaman is not required. Invitations and introductions are not required. A lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits is not required. Also you can learn from books, and you can take this subject causally. By saying all this stuff is required you set it on some pedestal and it becomes a sort of golden idol for you. It takes on religious overtones, and I am trying, desperately, to steer you away from that. This is not something holy, It is not some Ark of the Covenant that if you touch it you will die. It is not greater than you. Why do you think Zen came into being? It was a direct response to Buddhism becoming yet another religion. And now Zen is suffering the same fate. All these ceremonies, reverential attitudes, worshiping - its all complete and utter crap. It obscures the very heart of the practice. It makes each person dependent on others in their spiritual path, instead of allowing them to experience God for themselves. It creates converts, which is (literally in the Christan sense) another word for sheep. I am not against learning from a teacher. In fact the opposite is true, I would rather learn from a teacher than a book! But I have no teacher, as I have said over and over and over again around here. I have books. So I make due with what I have. And while I will not be disrespectful, because I am also not stupid, I am not going to go wash myself with frikkin' holy water, put on a clean white robe, and burn sage around my person, all because of some misguided sense that any of this has to be taken seriously! You know I read a coupe of Ram Dass's books, how he found his master and kissed his feet, and I suppose this is the sort of thing one does when one takes all this seriously. But I remember thinking how utterly gross and stupid that was. I can't help but have some criticism and judgment here. Maybe one day I will see differently. But for now I see it as a man is a man is a man, and has to wipe his arse like everyone else, no matter how enlightened he or she may be. I apologize for my harsh tone here. It is not my intention to offend you. I am just expressing myself as clearly as possible. Maybe you can see why I was drawn to Zen... Being casual and disrespectful is a part of my spiritual practice...

How many times must I repeat myself? Nungali, clean that wax out of your ears man! Oh wait, we are reading words here, so maybe I should write something about using glasses... Anyhow... I never chose to be a shaman or claimed to be one. This path and title was given to me. I really do not know how to explain this or justify to anyone, so I won't bother to try. I will just continue to correct those who believe or think that I gave this title to myself.

Well I never said what you said or didn't say, only what I felt you were implying, if that makes any sense at all... I am making no accusations, and I am not asking anyone for guidance on this subject, only for the best book titles on the subject. I would expect that if anyone here was willing to teach me I would have to go to them, in person, to begin training.

You will of course have to prove this, because my understanding is the exact opposite. The only buildings of his that have come down have been destroyed purposefully, as far as I know.