Antares

Nope. Standing, breath work, dao yin... is number 3 in Only when you have any background in southern school you will be able to compare methods. Southern methods are quite specific and all based on "heart to heart" transmission. But stances, sitting, swallowing... all are xin-Xing methods but not ming

Read my previous post where I quoted daoist classic text. Is it independent source for you or not? Or you will say again that this is somebodies interpretation? It does not matter sitting, standing, reversing, jumping until it based on post-heaven Qi which is Yin in nature. But as you can see chan meditations and breath work are considered as inconsistent methods of cultivation. What are the Damo' methods described in his book as of "foundation" and "intermediate" stages? All exercises which "gather qi" (number three in the list) or (7,8,9) are Yin in comparison to Yuan Qi. It can be practised prior to "Laying the Foundation" stage for the heart-mind stabilization only. If you say that all these post-heaven methods can nourish Yang Qi (Yuan Qi) then quote classic texts to support your statements The quote from that text above Everything that is based on postheaven is Yin in nature and dispels Yang.

The problem is that some people can not comprehend what is "Laying The Foundation" stage in Neidan. I quote it in every second post but all in vain. I repeat it once again: "The alchemical practice, however, is concerned with the human body. At the initial stage of the Neidan process, therefore, one should first replenish the basic constituents of the body, so that they conform to the requirements of the practice. Only then is it possible to undertake the stages of alchemical refinement proper." This is common stage for all schools for without this stage accomplishment the further Neidan process is not possible. At this stage a practitioner should replenish Yuan Qi to some degree and this process involves certain specific practice which is NOT Dazuo and which is NOT based on individuals mind - heart and post - heaven Qi. There was a discussion on DaoBums a few years ago (read it): What all these methods have in common? They are based on POST HEAVEN QI where Mind-heart involved and is used. That' why Dazuo, quiet sitting, Dao Yin, contemplation, breath work on this account CAN NOT BE NEIDAN PRACTICES. All post-heaven is Yin but Yuan QI is Yang. At the stage of "Laying The Foundation" a practitioner MUST NOURISH YANG - YUAN QI.

If you follow up his teaching why you personally can not explain in plain words what are the "foundations" and "intermediate" stages if you already read the book and you do it?

Dude, you are not attentive. I replied to you in other thread. I can repeat it once again. This is quote from Damo' book He writes that "Neidan SITTING practices" WORK TOGETHER WITH QIGONG. This is nonsense. Can you quote any classic texts which support the idea that at the outset daoist practised sitting along with qigong? This can be preparatory to Neidan stage, yes, I agree but not "NEIDAN SITTING PRACTICES" at the stage of "Laying the Foundation". If this book is about preparatory stage why he calls it "neidan sitting"? What is "Laying the Foundation" in his lineage?

I provided many links. If you can not comprehend it, it is no my problem

Sitting is designed more for the final stage. At the beginning moving must prevail over sitting. Da Zuo is used for mind heart sinking and should be done no more than 20 minutes per day because sitting exhausts jing. Da Zuo is not Xing but xin cultivation. Read classics, what Wang Chongyang wrote about initial stages. (The Farther of the Northern Schools). He says that Ming cultivation is followed by Xing cultivation. If you do not have the basis how can you meditate? From The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters By Stephen Eskildsen

I suppose that both northern and southern schools have a lot of similarities but just making different emphasis in practice. On "Laying the Foundation stage" both Xing and Ming should be cultivated because they are interrelated indeed I doubt it that seated methods have relation to Neidan if you talk about Dazuo or similar methods. The purpose of Dazuo is to sink heart-mind down and it is one of the preparatory method the same as tree stance or IMA stances. And by no any means seated methods should prevail over standing or dynamic ones. But I came across another definition of "Laying the Foundation" stage here https://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_44_lym.html In this case, yes, strengthening the Yin until it culminates

I provided the link already: https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_laying_the_foundations.html The expression "laying the foundations" is a metaphor often used in the alchemical texts. To build a house, one must first lay the foundations. Only when the foundations are stable and firm is it possible to set pillars and beams in place, and arrange bricks and tiles. Refining the Internal Elixir is based on the same principle. The alchemical practice, however, is concerned with the human body. At the initial stage of the Neidan process, therefore, one should first replenish the basic constituents of the body, so that they conform to the requirements of the practice. Only then is it possible to undertake the stages of alchemical refinement proper. Until the basic constituents do not conform to those requirements, the body's functions should be restored and augmented by means of inner practices, so that Essence, Breath, and Spirit can reach a state of abundance. All this pertains to the stage of "laying the foundations." Taoism deems Essence, Breath, and Spirit to be the major components of life, and the alchemical texts call them the Three Treasures (sanbao). If the Three Treasures are healthy and flourishing, the body is strong; if they are drained and depleted, illnesses develop. When the alchemical texts speak of refining the Elixir, they actually mean refining the Three Treasures. Chen Zhixu (1290-ca. 1368) says in his Jindan dayao (Great Essentials of the Golden Elixir): Essence, Breath, and Spirit affect one another. When they follow the course, they form the human being; when they invert the course, they form the Elixir. But I like this one more than the previous one:

All that glitters is not gold. On my path I met dozens of people who considered themselves as teachers. They teach what they learned from their teachers who considered themselves teachers as well. And of course, all that was not costless. I payed money for that stuff and I spent time and I put my energy in that stuff. I will give you an example. When in Ireland I studied yoga, qigong, also I did Aikido, and I began exploring Daoism and questioned my Sensei about this and that. He laughed at me saying that I like asking question and that my mind is deceiving me because it wants to know this and that... He said "I gave you already everything... just do it". But in fact he teached corrupted neigong which he picked up in USA from taichi master who learned it in HongKong. I spent years for that stuff... No one from that group got any results. When I asked Sensei about Daode he laughed and said they want my money and that they deceive people. But he did not even know what is Ming and what is the method of Ming. But he teached openly without secrecy. Also he teached taichi forms without internal exercises. Another story . I practised Bon there and teacher (women from Tibetan lineage) showed me breath exercises and I did every day. When I started feeling bad (I felt pain in lungs) she said she cannot help me. She could not even see my energy. When her teacher came to our place to hold the seminar I asked him about Xing and Ming and he refused to answer question saying that he is very busy. And this is quite famous teacher in the West. I can tell you even more stories about such the "teachers". Now I personally just more attentive to what I learn and what I do. I am not "daode guy", you are mistaken. Chinese teaching is not Buddhism and not "yoga classes" where instructors teach you openly. What is practical Daoism about? People want to get Immortallity. Chinese masters say: if you want to be immortal you can come to us and probably you get something from us but may be not. That' westerners mindset philosofy that you can buy something in one click. Juat pay online, click the button and immortal master will answer all your questions online 24/7. Teacher of Single Yang came to Russia and many people saw him in China. The same for teacher of Yuxian Pai. Here on Daobum was the ukranian guy Vitaly Lischina who took Daode materials and mixed it with qigong and sold it as Neidan. When Daode people started question him about methods he banned them on his forum and finally he went to London to teach people fake dao there. Now he is somewhere in USA teaching calisthenics and is starring in commercials. But in Ukraine and London he teached openly everyone. No one saw his teacher and no one knew him in China. As for Freeform I see no problem with him. If he can answer questions and explain what he is doing and why. The issue is why you want to get more information? Probably you want to get some ideas how to mix southern method with your own methods which you are already doing? Recently I got PM where a bum asked me how to get in touch with daode people. He wanted to ask them about something how... to mix his stuff with southern schools methods. So he just wanted to get info from them and mix it with something else. Of course, it does not work this way. All teaching is based on "heart to heart" transmission and you must be in close relations with your teacher. But many basics theroies can be shared openly and of course I am talking about basics.

Ok. The sitting is only the method then. So is that the method for "Laying the foundation" stage?

All texts represent methods symbolically, not in plain words. You need to have destiny to find a knowlegeable teacher and question him. No one is going to prove you anything. And there is no need for that. Huge part of teaching is transmitted orally. As I already mentioned in some branches they can do sitting from the very outset but one must be aware that sitting gives rise to Yin and in this case the method is to let Yin culminate until the Yang is born. This path might have a lot of side effects and I personally would not practice such the method. But it has right to exist. Daosit have saying "it would be a shame to let the Yin culminate but not to have Yang born". https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/texts_wuzhen_pian_7_comm.html If you are familiar with any other sitting method which produces Yang then let us know provoding support for that statement that "sitting produces Yang". In his book he writes that Neidan is done by sitting combining it with qigong and dao yin. I have never seen in texts that neidan is about practising qigong, dao yin and sitting. What does mean "so he should have his base covered"? So we have no texts to cover the idea that sitting and qigong ca be considered as Neidan practise. You always asking me to bring you classic texts but you provided zero texts from your side.

What is "their opinion"? It' s not "their" but it is the excerpt from the book of "Teacher of Single Yang". This is southern schools approach. As Damo says that he is adherer of a northern school then the approach can be quite different there and as we all already know they start off with Xing cultivation first. As for Wang Mu' description of the practice we need to understand what he is writing about. https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_shangde_xiade.html Here he says that "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue" correlate with Ming level of an individual INFERIOR VIRTUE DOES. Does means DOING. If you have not replenished your Ming your "no doing" sitting will be pointless and harmful. At least one needs to open up specific alchemical channels prior to sitting. There is the certain alchemical channel which is to be OPENED prior to sitting and this is described in southerns schools texts. You will not be able to open it while sitting and this comes from body/energy mechanics. If you know these practices in Damo' school then disclose it please. From what I read in his book and I repeat it again and again, Damo teaches sitting as main method combining it with qigong and dao yin which have small relation to neidan if any at all

"in Damo Mitchell' material that is qigong/neigong" the article about difference between qigong and neidan https://all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

I suppose that the rule of the thumb is to say name of your teacher and school, but if person is even prohibitted to say this and also are prohibitted to read classic texts and discuss it, then it is something wrong with such the school

"in this case, this did not happen" Let's say at this time you can not comprehend what chineese masters say. If you just disagree with them or with some of them then bring quotes from classic texts that support your idea. From my perspective as I already said in some northern schools or branches sitting can be practised at the very outset but you must be aware that sitting gives rise to Yin. Read here https://all-dao.com/dazuo-meditation.html You disagree with this?

I am a little familiar with YuXian Pai methods (initial stage only) and there are NO sitting methods at the outset of practice. All exercises are quite dynamic but on later stage there is static exercise and from what I heared and if I am not mistaken the sitting is done at a much later stage. Also I would like to point out that all initial methods work with preheaven channels (not nourishing yuan qi yet). I do not think I need to assert rights to correct methods here or to blame someone and to have argument with you. We are talking about Damo' teaching. If you are familiar with his lineage methods then disclose it here please and elaborate on it.

Cleansox, I never have said that neidan can not be practiced seated. What I said is that in Southern Schools the Ming is cultivatated on the initial stage and it has no relation to sitting since sitting produces Yin. Zhan Boduan says about it. "Dully sitting" is sitting that produces Yin. Not Dull sitting is possible when one has abundant Yang. Also I provided quote from another source (not WLP) where it is said that in southern schools Ming cultivation precedes Xing cultivation, thus I have a reason not to consider Damo' methods as methods which have features of any southern schools which originated from Zhan Boduan legacy.

This information comes from Zhan Boduan. I did not even mention WLP in my previous post. Zhan Boduan means that Ming cultivation precedes Xing cultivation. If you want to have an argument then quote Zhan Baduan where he says that Jing Zuo is the alchemical method that is practised on the initial stage of neidan in Southern School. Views of Xing (Nature) and Ming (Existence) The Northern and Southern lineages have performed the historical function of providing Neidan with two exemplary modes of self-cultivation. Beizong/Quanzhen originally did not include only Neidan among its practices. From the point of view of the history of Neidan, however, its importance consists the establishment of a major type of Neidan self-cultivation. Beizong places emphasis on Xing (one's inner Nature, which is innately perfected), and accordingly focuses on practices meant to purify one's mind ("emptying the mind," "extinguishing the mind," "ending thoughts"). The underlying doctrines make use of Buddhist notions and terms — in particular, of the doctrine of "seeing one's Nature" (jianxing). The Nanzong mode of cultivation, instead, places initial emphasis on Ming (one's life as an individual being, including one's "destiny" or function in existence as a whole, and one's endowment of "vital force"), and focuses on practices that intend to compound the Elixir by purifying the main components of the human being: Essence, Breath, and Spirit (jing, qi, shen). These practices follow the sequence Essence → Breath → Spirit → Dao, and consist of a process typically arranged into three main stages, the last of which lies in cultivating one's Xing, or inner Nature. The three main stages are usually called: (1) "Refining Essence and transmuting it into Breath" (lianjing huaqi) (2) "Refining Breath and transmuting it into Spirit" (lianqi huashen) (3) "Refining Spirit and returning to Emptiness" (lianshen huanxu) https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/nanzong_beizong.html I repeat the query - what is the Ming method in Damo' school?

I think the best way is to question Damo for the names of stages and practices and then send the written inquiry to the Chineese Daoist Association. But I personally do not think it has any relation to the southern school. Southern schools inherited some methods from Northern Longmen but as far as I know they do Ming methods at the outset and there are no seated methods on the initial stages. I am not familar good enough with Damo''s methods but from what I have read in his book on neidan he proposes to practise the sitting "meditation" along with Dao Yin and Qigong. Zhan Boduan wrote: I repeat my query again - if this is Xing method what is the Ming method then? In Southern Schools Ming cultivation precedes Xing cultivation.

In this video he provides very general information regarding stages in neidan. And he seems to talk about preliminary practices which precede the methods of Neidan. He only mentions Northern school without naming certain school and stages of Neidan

And what are the methods from Quan Zhen he teaches?

Every stage of practice and methods in it should have names in Chinese. On "Laying the foundation" stage there is supposed to be work with preheaven cultivation "Stabilizing the awareness" should precede "Laying the foundation" stage

In my experience the best way of qi deviations elimination is its prevention on all stages from the very ouset. That means that teacher should control the correctness of a student' execution of the exercises and give corrections straight away. Also the energy of teacher is playing huge role in all this process. Otherwise deviations are inevitable

Online program? Do they do energy corrections? Can they see people's energy?