Antares

Okey... I am completely arrogant person. Can you elaborate on your experience of Mantek methods?

But how Mantek Chia relates to any authentic Pai? To me it is mishmash of qigong methods which can only lead to many sorts of deviations. If you want really to assess the quality of his "methods" at first you might want to taste the effects of the methods of any authentic Pai. If you do this then you are able to realize what is good and not for you. Mantek's methods and many others that use mind to lead qi strenuously can only harm people energy - some less than others - but all these methods will lead you nowhere. This is not even Xing. Xing and Ming are interrelated and they are cultivated simultaneously. The phrase "Cultivation of Xing first" means only that there is more stress on Xing in the outset but Ming is cultivated as well. Ming can not be transmitted through the book. Even "sentient beings" of other realms can not transmitt Ming. I recall some people used to say "you can get transmission from the Tao" on this forum but this is not true. It is pointless to talk about Xing and Ming methods until you find a knowlegeable Teacher. And the issue is not even in knowing movements but there is another essential factor that related to essence of our reality. Try to comprehend what are post- and preheaven energy. All individual "mind-body" nature (what one realizes as "I am") is postheaven in its nature. One can only have a glimpse on preheaven reality but hardly can comprehend the method. Even if he/she finds the describtion of the method then it is the the matter of how to overcome all blockages not being caught by dark entities

Yeah, I can see millions people disappearing in the space and leaving rainbows here and there after reading Mantek Chia's books.

All Neidan methods are transmitted "from heart to heart" only. Translator is not much of help in this case. But of course you need to comprehend what teacher says to you. Real Ming methods have never been disclosed in books.

And no comments

If you read article about Tai chi chih you can read there that: " In 1974, Stone had written: ‘The movements...are the results of many years of experimentation. They represent an extension and development of the original movements taught by a Chinese master. The important principles have been retained as the repertoire has been expanded.’" Later he could change his story on the origin of this system. For what a reason I do not know. The problem with westerners is that they far not always can do the same movements as Chinese masters do. May be other people can perform movements of tai chi chi right but as for this women she is somewhat stiff and if you watch her standing from 47:00 on the video her shoulders tend to go upright and she has more energy on the top. If someone does not do it right but can experience sensations in hands in the meanwhile or in whatever another part of the body it can be, it does not mean they do it right. The goal of this system is not to feel energy in the hands and experiense sensations. It can be a sign of progress but it is not the main goal and it does not mean that the whole set is done correctly. Deviations can have very subtle form and not always can be perceived by senses. Also person can get used to deviations when they turn up and than it could hard even to realize that person is in trouble until they have substantial form

The person from whom I learned these exercise said that he had learned it in China himself in 90s from Chinese master. He had never seen Justin Stone so this neigong originated from China and was not invented by Justin Stone. I sent link to person from whom I learned and he said he did not like the way it is done on the video somebody posted above (with old women). As I already mentioned they keep hands too high what makes the energy go up and causes imbalance. So I would not advise doing it without knowlegeable teacher.

Well, they are quite busy people. Why to waste time for iddle talks? If you practice for 4 hours a day and also you need to work, spend time for transport, then your family, studying Dao and so on. If you want to know something email to DaoDe center and ask questions. Also "opendao" posted a lot of valuable info here. I personally would recomend to practise their Daogong system. This is very elegant easy to do system which can benefit a lot. What are the benefits in terms of potency? What we can consider as Potency? Only alchemical methods are really powerful as well as methods which were referred to as Yangshengong in the Past. All contemporary qigong systems were originated from it but I believe they have been corrupted to a great extent. Daogong is based on alchemical principles and was created under the supervision of the Teacher Of Single Yang who is Patriarch of WuLiuPai. More over that they conduct the energy of the Daoist School and this has power for itself. One may think that exercises seem to be quite simple and that it is not worth practising. But power is in its simplicity. This system balances the energy and cleansing the heart. And I believe it is very important for the contemporary person. As for potency I believe that it is not the issue how much energy one gains but it is more important NOT TO WASTE energy and to allow the energy to flow freely. So if you do not practise Neidan I would recommend practising Daogong. Also It speeds up progress in any other system one practises. It develops more sensitivity and power of shen. So I heard that if one stops practising it then the progress goes much slower in alchemy. Daogong helps to "listen" your energy, also it develops the "energy body" and ability to diagnose your state of mind and energy. Also it helps to eliminate negative energy what makes person more stable and balanced and promotes spiritual welness. If one gains loads of energy but cant manage the balance then it might lead to deviations.

As for your query whether I do yuan qi nourishing I say NO. One need to enter School as personal disciple for that and requirements for that are pretty harsh especially if you are not from Russia. But that what I have tried is quite powerful.

Right. But this is entirely depends on a technics you do. So the phrase "attention (awareness) trumps intention" is not clear to me enough. I hope this is not political propaganda. Awareness is the part of intention and should not prevail it. Before you do anything there is a tiny intention coming from your Shen. I mentioned three aspects of qigong/neigong arts: 1)physical/ psychic 2) energetic 3) spiritual. So 3d one is playing huge role in it and is what differs it from calisthenics. The "spiritual" part implicates Shen force. Shen force can be thought of as combination of Xin (heart/mind) and Yi (intention), as well as that part of us which controls both. Ting is only part of it and should not prevail. There is Yi Quan where we can use Yi not as Ting only but for martial purposes as well. There are Yang and Yin aspects in it. And one of the goals is to find BALANCE.

Not really, the query was more in re to preparatory "tai chi" movements. And I provided the video above with what sort of movements I meant. But you provided quite internal method which differs from previous one. But anyhow even in this method there is a work of YI (intent). And if one looks through his channel thoroughly they will see video explaining the work of YI. He talks more about Yi, but not about Ting and Song (watch 6:20) Sinking requires work of your Yi. I would agree that one should not imagine roots - that would be wrong approach. But in general there should be work of Yi and that' what this guy says comparing Yi with awareness. Awareness is not imagination. He says "then the commanding part is intention to move...that is Yi...just command every part of the movement. This is the training of the quality of your intention" 9:05 "then when you want to move you command your movement, the chi follows that movement"

This discussion began from the query on "tai chi swings" movements or some similar movements if I got it right. I just wonder how that happens that there is no intention involved in such movements or involved in small degree. May be I did not understand the query. What is the purpose of these exercices and how it works? Please disclose your point of view on this issue. How does it work with minimum intention? For example, you lift hands up and down. There is certain intention involved in movements. Where does this command to move your hands come from?

I mean that Chinese masters do not explain the energy flow and what the movements for. Of course, they will give correct instructions but without much explanations how movements effect energy

So you want to say that your shovel is moved for itself almost without intent when you allow your attention working? It depends on a method is used. There can be spontaneous movements and in this case, yes, intention is used in a small degree, but in other methods we have certain method with certain movements. Try to do tai chi forms without intention. Are you on the level when these forms are doing you but it is not you who does the movements without any intent?

It depends on the level of practice and the method of practising. In the beginning one uses will and control but on more advanced levels tje work of intention is involved. This is simple and not at the same time

I disagree. Many (almost all) arts have lost the method of Ming from way back. So they involve a way much mind work now. The same is in qigong which is the product of 20th century. But in some qigong methods it can be used as a part of preparatory methods. So returning to the issue of the potent systems , I presume that only methods which are based on the work of preaheven qi can be consedered as Potent systems. All vizualization based methods involve postheaven qi circulation which can promote benefits but in many cases it only harms one's preheaven qi in long perspective. This is postheaven qi circulation which will harm your preheaven qi if you use mind control and visualization.

Yes, imagination is the hindrance for energy flow. But intention differs from imagination. I don't agree with that guy on the video above that one needs to imagine colours of the energy. But intention is important. In China teachers don't explain movements, they just give it as it is. And when disceple has obtained enough qi level then they should realize what movement does. So this is a matter of energy and correct structure of the body and all of this implements attention of course. They say "Yi leads qi ". Yi can also be interpreted as 'intention'. Where your intention goes, your energy follows. And I can not agree that attention trumps intentions. Both of them should be implicated

I will give you an example. Watch initial movements here. Their efficiency depends on the intent with which it is done

There are a few levels in qigong/neigong systems. It depends on Yi development so movements work on the levels of: 1) Physical / psychical 2) Energetics 3) Spiritual For the latter one the previous two are of great importance but implicate the work of Yi/Intent and it is where spiritual work begins. Also the state of mind is of great importance. The two visually similar movements may work on different levels. It depends on who and how does it

Immediate boost of energy, pleasent feelings inside, good and deep sleep

Yes, but kidneys channels in the first place. Watch movements carefully, the secret is in ""yining" and "yanging". But better to do with instructor for one can fall into desires. Hope you familar with daogong. If you combine them the better effect you will get. First do daogong, then taichi chih.

The person who taught me 8+1 exercises mentioned once that there is a man in USA who brought it from China and lived long but his system is not original one because he added a few more movements and slightly changed it. Also he said that what they teach is original set which was secret method of Chinese Emperors. So i believe that there are 9 basics exercises of the ancient set of exercises.

I did not practise it long enough in order to be able to evaluate it fully. I learnt it in Wu Liu's branch in Russia 6 years ago and the story in re of the origin of this system comes from there. I did not do research on this system. Also to be honest I mentioned it here for the further investigation of this system. At that time I had been practising it for about 6 months and then shifted to another methods which I considered more advanced. So I stopped doing it after 6 months of practice. I was said that it works on all levels including health and spiritual one. There is actually one exercise in it where one should move hands high on the level above the top of the head and as far as got it right it helps the spiritual evolution but my instuctor did not recommend doing it as it is recommended for advanced practitioners. So I can not recommend doing all exercises if you are not ready for that. It is not recommended to cultivate top tan tien in the beginning as it can move energy up into the head. Just mention it for safety reason. At that time the benefit out of practising it was the energy boost straight after doing it. So they teached only 8 exercises as part of the initial preparation for more advanced methods. But the main initial method there is Daogong which I have been practising mainly. Recently I come across this system on the youtube and decided to try it again. This time I did more exercises after Daogong and.... WOW... it was feeling like "kundalini" awakening. Now every time I do it I feel "awakening" and very pleasent feellings like pleasent currents of qi moving inside. I started making investigation on the system. As for whether it is correct on the video I dunno as I learnet only 8 out of them. These 8 are shown right on the video but to me it seems they lift hands too high. May be it is not good to lift hands so high for the beginners at least. Only I can say that system balances yin and yang and nourishes kidneys, also works on central channel. Also they gave me a few another neigong methods to open up legs channels which help to benefit more from this systems.

Incredibly powerful system. Justin Stone brought it from China in 70th. This system was invented by Yang Luchang for the Chinese Emperor Court for he was famous martial artist at that time and was invited by the Emperor to teach the Court martial skills. The Emperor had harem and was very busy with all his day to day activities. So he needed a lot of energy for all his activites and asked Yang Luchan to teach him energy cultivation system for gaining power. Yang invented this system for this request and he used some tai chi movements which he simplified so that lay people could practise it. The feature of tai chi chih is that it works with Ming channels. Justin Stone died at age of 95. If you do it right you can feel joy and even bliss during execution and after exercises have been done. Good for eldery people for maintaining health issues.

Here I will answer to Terry Dunn's post in his thread: I will start by saying that while you are entitled to your own belief that "a practitioner should avoid any dreaming on the advanced level of practice", your statement that it is taught or upheld universally by a singular or monolithic "Taoist Tradition" is absolute wrong, fallacious and misleading, and counterproductive in that it only sews confusion in a beginner of Qigong of any tradition--whereas an advanced practitioner would have had enough experiential truth to know that the matter is absolutely moot and thus know to take issue with you. I have to answer in this thread because I was strictly prohibited to answer re lucid dreaming subject in his own thread (I can only guess why). Well, l would appriciate if anyone can cite taoist scriptures where it is said that there are taoist lucid dreaming practices which were practiced by any renown taoist masters of the past. Contrary, I could find only texts where is said that taoist adepts seem to have negative attitudes toward dreams https://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-1177_1995_num_8_1_1090