Antares

The difference between qigong and Taoist alchemy (the Elixir way If there is no true sperm in the tripod (Fu), that is like to boil empty kettle (Cheng) using water and fire". This is the best apt expression in relation to the exercises of Qigong in the performance of the rotation around the circle of heaven. Without Water flowing and without the True Sperm to realize a small circle of heaven - to use a feeling of qi is like using a fire to burn under an empty pot (Go). Then you can’t escape a burn-out. This circle of heaven of qigong uses the mobilization-release potential (qiannen) of body and produces wastes (xunhao). It's just like to speed up a car with the brakes on. The faster it will go, the more damage there will be, but it will give no benefits. Similar to this, the rotation of the circle of heaven does not do any good. The above shows the difference between a small circle in alchemy and qigong. The ways of Alchemy and Qigong have very many differences, but the most fundamental difference is that alchemy is the process of reverse perfection, while qigong – is a process of onward perfection. Perfecting the way of alchemy is collection of primordial pre-heaven jing, thereby fulfilling the lost post-heaven jing, restoring the destroyed body, adding oil (tianyu) and prolonging destiny (zeming). The primordial jing is collected for melting and transforming it into qi; using the primordial qi make melting qi and transforming it into shen, then moving farther and melting shen and returning to Emptiness; by melting Emptiness completing Tao. All this leads to the fact that the men who perfect themselves overcome the old age and return to youth, and realizing the reverse perfection become the All-wise. But qigong, by contrast, is unable to collect the primordial jing, and therefore there is no way of reverse perfection; it only possible that a man slightly decreases the loss (continually ongoing), slow decreasing of post-heaven jing, whereby regulating the physiology of their body, achieving the effect of escape from diseases and a small extension of life. Most importantly, the way of alchemy increases the primordial jing, qi and shen of the human body, as opposed to qigong, which can only follow the law of nature, whereby the human body always follows the order of creation and destruction (death). Any qigong is just an accessory method in the preparatory phase of Taoist alchemy and any kind of qigong can’t go beyond the preparatory stage of the elixir way.

This is new agey theory bro. Read the book The Secret of the Golden Flower where is disclosed another theory on what happens after death. Our spirit is immortal but individuality dies completely. Taoism is about how to become immortal preserving individual features after death.

Well, the basic initial practice in WuLiu is described here: http://all-dao.com/jiuyangshengong.html NO ONE can skip it. Only if one has superior virtue one would be able to practice further method. All information about further methods are closed. In Taoist Yoga book initial methods are skipped and translation is no good. That what WLP people say. Personally I cant recommend to practice ANYTHING from books. It' always better practicing according to traditional approach beginning from basic methods. First one need to balance body and mind and there are two methods based on postheaven and preheaven mechanism. Preheaven methods are very rare nowadays. Only two taoist schools agreed to teach foreigners and not everybody happy with it in China. So I see here two options: 1. Guessing, arguing, chatting and blah blah blah... 2. Practicing. No words can help much. All the best

Because Xing is spirit-soul (enlightened) and Ming is innate body energy. Soul will be more in Yin state without fullness of Ming. That' why Ming Gong precedes Xing Gong. Xing Gong as described in the book without Ming Gong will only dissipate Ming (Yang) and a person can reach only some state of stillness but if one's Ming is not full it will lead to out-of-body experience which in turn will cause more Yang energy dissipation. You can read what taoist Liu YiMing wrote about this: http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/cultivating_the_tao_19.html So the initial stage is to nourish Yang energy in motion (doing) but not by seating (no doing). Inferior virtue is lack of pure Yang energy of the body (Ming). In the beginning one must refine organ's energy and improve qi circulation. This is done in motion. Thus this is initial stage in Wu Liu and YuXian schools which initial practices I am a bit familar with. That' all I can add to it. You can't just add something to your own practice. You will have to follow to instructions of a teacher otherwise no one will teach you. But you can do what you like personally, that will be your choice

Bible was written for lay people as a manual to achieve the state of Christ (pure yang). Do you know anybody who achieved this state without teacher? I mean all texts are written only for 2 sorts of people: 1) For internal disciples 2) For lay people First sort of people get transmission under teacher's personal supervision and texts are written as manual only. The meaning of symbols cannot be realized without teachers explanation and transmission because of the method never has been disclosed in a book. All lay people will never realize the meaning of symbols without these explanations. An interpreter will not be able to translate all meanings correctly and thus there will be mistakes which will be very sufficient. Anyway as i have mentioned initial practices were skipped in this book. You can't skip them to achieve goals described there. Is there anything about laying the foundation in the book? Is there initial houtian method described? These texts never were aimed to be written for second sort of people as direct manual but only as a direction for further search of a teacher and were issued only for theoretical insights in order to have ability to distinguish traditional and corrupt practices. I will repeat it again - look for the teacher. But if you still can not find good teacher who teaches neidan you can practice houtian methods as preparation to neidan. But NO books here again. It could be some forms of taichichuan or other IMA methods but it's better to find good teacher who learned it in China. In Wu Liu Pai school there is Open Tao (tao gong) qigong which is based on IMA methods which have alchemical foundation and aimed to give ability nourish and balance post-heaven qi. Somewhat similar practice I saw on Waysun Liao' DVD.

In the book you mentioned initial state of practice is skipped and its translation is not accurate. No alchemical method can be transmitted through the book or even video. You have look for teacher but not book

People talk trash here? So you want to say Taoist masters talk trash?

No, there is no houtian practice in neidan. But yes there is houtian practice as preparation for neidan. Do you see the diference? This "horrible thread" is about building-the-foundation-and-inner-alchemy. This is initial stage in Neidan which is not houtian method at all. But this is xiantian method that effects houtian. Do you see the difference? I will refer to the text of the Taoist master of the recent past. http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_stages.html Hope it's said quite clear

He must be a sage who has long white beard and thick eyebrows soaring on the white cloud and sitting in the full lotus. Also he must.... (now forget about all this) I believe we should not expect somebody who I mentioned above. All these describtions are for the mind only. There are no many teachers who teach neidan in the Western countries. It must be Chinese school which has been historically proved and has strong authentic lineage. Then you have to try it' methods whether it suits you and you should practise it for a while. It must not be Great Teacher I think. It could be His student who can transmit some initial methods. It should be enough to start

It's better to find teacher. The method can not be realized by reading a book. There is danger to fall into mental constructions when mind begins to operate by terms and definitions. This is one of the major problems for beginners. But I believe it's quite useful to read it because it will give some ideas about right and wrong methods of cultivation. But anyway one will need a teacher for the transmission of the method and his/her help for understanding the theory of the cultivation in order to avoid any misunderstandings.

Yanshengong is preliminary to neidan practice. It's similar to qigong but it's not. Qigong was invented recently and it's some body and energy exercises which work with postheaven qi but yansheng was even mentioned by Chuang Tzu and belonged to Taoist arts in the past. "Yang" means "to nourish" and has the meaning of "no-action"; and "shen" means "life" in Chinese - this is "prenatal qi" in the human body. I would put it in hieroglyphs but my system does not support it. As practise methods in that school I mentioned it is Wudang 5 Animal Frolics and some static and dynamic energy exercises. They state it is necessary part of the Taoist art.

There are a few people in Russia who have taoist teachers in China. Some of them have relation to WL and Wudang lineages. The latter one relates to the one of the Wudang branch which is Chang San Fang' lineage as far as I know. But it' mostly yanshengong and not alchemy as in Wu Liu. I was confused about this when was reading about this Wudang lineage. In general I would say there are few very credible taoist systems which are available for studying in Russia and Belarus which are not available all the way in the Western countries. I dont mean Wu Liu only but some other systems also and not Chinese only. There are many information that would be quite off of this thread and it is difficult for me to put it in English here. I can say it' more cheap than in the Western countries and the matter is not in the price only but in authenticity also. I can give you links but all information there is in Russian. Here are not Wu Lui and Wudang systems available only and not only in Russian and if you are interested I would be able to give you more information in PM. The question is whether you ready to travel to the the East Europe. If you live in USA there are few options for you as well. I did not mean it's only in CIS but I know better what is available here. Anyway I do not believe that learning from DVd is good option for anybody

I am sorry for I have missed this question. I can give you link and more info but... all these seminars are held in Russia and Belarus only. PM me for more info

What does mean "top off naturally"? I did not get it. Anyway I quoted your words about "fascist neidan schools". I dunno where you could meet such schools. Sounds weird to me.

JB wrote: Some of renowned taoists of the Past had been looking for a Teacher who could transmit the neidan method, for all their life and when they finally found him they had had to serve to him for few years before Teacher started teach them. Consider this facr as argument and remember that actually it is (real Teaching) is far not for everyone. I do not say to become opendao' student but just give you real example how people of the past estimated the real Teaching. Now situation has changed and you should not judge taoists if you just can't get it right. You should not call taoist methods fascist just bc you never spoke to real taoist people. I had a chance to speak to a few students from taoist neidan schools and no one said that things happend naturally in pracrtice. All of them have certain method of cultivation. All the same in authentic yogic systems. They are not fascist at all. This confusaion has roots in that that people read some pops books and make conclusions on the basis of the information they get from it. But authentic teaching is not transmitted by books.

I mean one which worked really good for you. I tried many and I would not say it was working good. OK, I did not get sick but I expected something like WOW effect. There is one secret taoist formula and it is sold only in China and prohibited to ship outside China. They say it is the very best formula . What I expect from it? Balancing yin / yang in body's organs. It was not the case with what I tried before.

But this is only quote: anyway i am not talking about this initial practice only. I believe there are few students who is practising next level of the methods

You can read it from description of Jiuyanshengong practice: http://all-dao.com/features-jiuyangshengong.html I know it is not welcomed to show these results to anyone else but I was curious to see someone who began getting younger. This is what taoist scriptures describe as one of the level of achievements. But it is nevermind. Also there is a statement that correct Ming practice grants physical immortality and this is evidence of the right method I never have heard it from other traditional teachings and I wonder how it is really possible to achieve. I suppose someone must have very good karma to achieve it and this is not only a matter of practice for itself. I have to keep practicing more intensively and check it out myself

What means "based on Ming" and "prepare yuan qi"? I seem to be confused a little here. As far as I know these preliminary exercises refine post heaven qi in organs and prepare pre heaven channels. But there is no restoration of yuan qi yet. So it might be the preparation for the Ming gong. I did not ask instructors much about this as I was concentrated on practice rather than on theory. From this point of view it is beginning of the ming gong indeed. But this is quite different from initial WuLu method. In YuXian it looks more as qigong exercises with usage of personal consciuosness (post heaven shen) but in WuLu' method this is only a short preparation for the Ming method (Juiyangshengong) where work of personal consciuosness should be stopped and is not welcome at all. So there are different approaches at all. As far as I know in ming method the movement and restoration of yuan qi is possible when post heaven shen is kind of switched off and a person has spontaneous movement when yuan qi manifests itself opening pre heaven channels and post heaven shen is only watching at the process. This is the work of yuan qi as far as I got it right. Hmm, it sounds similar to the spontaneous contemplation in Dzogchen teaching. But nowadays they teach how to use personal mind to control this process in "meditation". It is just may be that WuLu initial method is more straight than in YuXian but both of them are ming gong practices with different approaches. I just was confused how movements based on personal consciousness in shengong could be Ming method. As far as I got it right this is the advantage of taoist alchemist - the refinement of Xin-Xing is achieved by the Ming restoration. We do not have to sit quietly, we do not need to refrain from "mundane" way of life, we do not need to "clean" our soul (heart)... Sounds pretty good but I believe it depends on how we are already "pure" and how much emptiness in heart we already have. So this returns us back to the xin methods again. Actually I am trying to say that even Samatha in Buddhism is not meditation yet and is only preliminary practice for quieting the heart, and it is only xin method. But many of schools who teach it nowadays lost Ming method as the foundation for serious spiritual results

Ok, but what traditions are you talking about? Some branches of LongmenPai, chan, zen, fitness yoga, christianity...? If we have a look at authenticTibetan/Indian traditions I suppose there are many Ming practices but without stress on it according to Taoist terminology. So we have to admit that many traditions have preserved Ming methods... but I can not do this statement. The issue is only in final realization as I believe. And also how orient tradition are compatible with western mindset. It' better to talk about Taoist school and methods as we are on the Taoist forum. May be Taoist Ming practices are something really different from other orient tantric/yogic methods but we can not even talk about it without having experience in all of them so it would be better not trying even to compare them. The Ming method could be a matter of certain kind of transmission within a traditional teaching. It' all about a person' personal karma and level of a teacher. Even if there is ming method but there is no good teacher a student will not be able to complete the method to the result which is described in authentic texts. I believe it's very crucial who we are getting a method from. May be it' even more important than the method for itself. Have you seen anyone who stopped the process of aging and reversed his / her age back? This is what Taoist texts describe as some proof of achievement. I have seen few people from WuLuPai but I saw them few times and I had no chance to see them before. So I cannot say anything definite how it works for them. If younger look is not evidence what an evidence could be there else? I actually know that there are few powerful methods within WuLu and YuXian and that people getting some good results. What is special in these Ming methods in Taoist schools? I know a little about WuLu but as for YuXian for example there is no Ming in the beginning and if we have a lool at history of Quanzhen school there were a lot of xin- Xing methods in the beginning quieting the mind. Ming method in work only when person restores yuan qi indeed. Do you think it' possible without direct transmission from high level Chinese teacher?

Nice theory. Only the question HOW are you going to raise your frequency. Everyone already has soul and spirit which vibrate with higher energy frequency but people can not feel it because of many karmic blockages in the mind and body. How are you going to increase the frequency of your mind to realize the Tao? You need: 1) Teacher who already has this frequency 2) Method how overpass your karmic issues Theacher transmits the energy coming from the Tao and this is only the way how to overpass your own blockages. We can say many other theories but all of them will remain theories until we have high level Teacher and authentic method. Method of "energy cultivation" works with our innate energy body. Far not every single method works the same way and far not every method can bring you to the Tao even if you put much efforts. The method must have the right sequence and cause the right changes in you energy body. The human being has certain energy structure and only enlightened person knows how to work with energy body. Far not every teacher knows the right method for energy cultivation. The difference is that which energy channels they work with

Hi, opendao. How can you be sure that ALL tradtions have lost the method of restoring Yuan Qi? I think that probaly the difference between some of them and Neidan is that they do not use such terminology as Xing and Ming. Foe example in Tantra they use such words as: mind (Xing) and Kundalini (Ming). How can you be sure they are not envolved in "dual cultivation" by practicing mind - heart cultivation and Kundalini methods? In general in Tantra they begin with xin-Xing method on the stage of Kyerim and then there is final stage wich is called Dzogrim where there are many methods of work with innate power (energy, prana, qi). Far not every Taoist school starts with Ming method as well as many tantric traditions. This is only the matter of terminology.

No, many paths lead to Death unfortunately. For example, the achievement of Ghost immortality is considered to be even worse than normal death as person who would achieve this can't be reborn and can't get physical body to get chance to practice again. It is because this person wasted Ming (Yang essence) practicing wrong methods (Yin methods). Taoist scriptures warn about these mistakes on the Path. That' why not all paths lead to immortality and even health. As I said before neidan method can't be realized by any single person on his/her own and can be only transmited. This is neither Buddism, nor Yoga, nor Chan, nor any other tradition. I believe it is mistake to compare these teachings with alchemical taoism. May be there are some similarites regarding achievments in authentic tantric methods but there is all the same as in Taoism concerning transmission and you can't get it from a book. Tradition is never transmited throughout books. If you feel your heart promts you to choose tantra then you have to find a teacher and get transmission. But believe me it' very dificult path. I know a very advanced tantra teacher within authentic Indian tantra lineage and according to his words it' very dificult path for westerners and very dificult to succed in it. This is not just to seat in meditation like RM. Who knows what realization he attained

I am not sure I've got all sense of your post but we are on the Taoist board. It' up to you why you are here. If you are getting me right of course. Yes, there are loads of teachers out there and you are free to choose. But if read Taoist scriptures very carefully, Wuzhen Pian for instance, you will realize that methods akin to Ramana Maharshi were considered as Yin methods which lead to the first level of achievement which is called "Ghost Immortal". It has not been considered as right spiritual achievement in Taoism. That' why I am saying you have to study authentic scriptures but not New Agey literature. RM' s method is very similar to late Chan practices which have been under the critics by authentic teachers for centuries. Many people are so lazy to study Tradition properly but I understand why. It is because people rely on TV, popular books and so on.

I extended my previous post in order to add some more information