Antares

zhendao does not exist in China and this is truth.

It does not matter whether you were instructor or was in his workshop. The main concern that your system has much in common with this system according to information of those ones who took your seminar and that you have no lineage in Quanzhen sect. Otherwise there should be evidence for that. For mods. I stop here but Vitaliy should prove his statements in relation to Quanzhen sect. Otherwise it will be like circus here. This is very sadly to watch it.

So you deny that you took Xu Mintang instructor' seminar? Yes?

Here some people complain about legit. concerns on the TTB regarding certain systems or teachers. This is not my goal to discredit anybody here but I can not realize why some people claim to be masters without any prove of certification or achievement in Taoist arts. I asked a moderator here and I was replied that it is not ToS' administration concerns if someone legit or not. In other thread there was concern about a system of Xu Mingtan. It is well known that Vitaliy was instructor in that qigong system. The main exercise is Zhan Zhuan there and seating dazuo and visualization of red ball and MCO. That' the main source of Vitalii's "Neidan". There is much similarities. I just let other people know where this "quanzhen" is derived from. it has nothing to do with neidan at all. If I am wrong Vitaliy should bring any evidence that he has relation to Quanzhen. Hope this post will not disappear.

What is the source of this schedule and practice? Which period? Only meditation and chanting?

This is second time. You even deleted one of my posts where I brought evidence about commercial system and said that it was not so important to know if there was lineage or not. Now you seem unhappy that I talk about importance of authenticity of any other system . Peace to you.

Of course nothing dangerous should be on any workshop. The quote I posted is from the same system but from another instructor. He changed the name of the system and explain things from different point regarding this system. If you were not sure why posted then?

You always see what you want to see. I am not talking of the book but about what is Neikong and Qigong and about definition of Neigong and about dangers coming from commercial sources. This is not first time when you say that it does not matter if something legit or not. It seems to me that many people really do not care about this. If you give them a book they can practice it wothouts any doubts and talk on the forum. But if you post another information about cultivation they might say "ahh stop it, just do it... we do not care". LOL

Can you find THESE practices in taoists texts? A lot of standing seems to be Yin cultivation. And that' what they do in this qigong. You say that nothing dangerous there but let' read what they say: So they take pictures from taoist classic texts and mix it up, calling upon to cultivate Yin Shen naming it "Immortal Embryo" and "salvation". Classic mistake. And this is dangerous. I could not find information in authentic texts that one should cultivate Yin Shen by means of standing which leads to astral projections and thus further to Yan Shen cultivation. I just have found the picture of the guy who wrote this article. He seems to have excess of Yin. And he teaches others. But this is typical for the West and he is not only one. I would suggest you to learn taoist classics and not trust people who just say that they cool bc they do something for a long time. Cultivation is serious process and authentic stuff is very very rare. I do not think it could be found in books and video. May be some basics only. Neigong must be the same as Neidan = internal elixir. Which nourishes Yan Shen. But this is not Yin Shen cultivation. Who out of those teachers who sell a stuff can explain all this and give you correct practice? But they sell books and video's. Regards

On web forums when I was investigating about this system. This is classical new age qigong which is not known in China. But easy to sell to people in the West where people love this stuff. As far as I know Martynova added a lot of her personal stuff when she did "translation". I will not be surprised if it was translated couple times from one language to another. I see it is not your concern but the title of the thread is THE BEST Neigong teacher. How you know it is Neigong at all? Why is the best? What is your personal achievement? Dangerous because it has mixture of different stuff and people experiment on themselves. The main exercise is tree stance there and I doubt it works with prenatal chi, and everything what is based on post heaven chi cultivation dangerous bc can cause deviations. You have to read classic taoist texts before giving advises to other people. You guys picking up different stuff on the market, mix things together and recommend this stuff each other without having real achievements in these systems and then asking what is dangerous. Good jokes. No one cares about authenticity at all.

I would not recommend THIS book. As far as I know it's translated badly. And this qigong system is kinda version of Xu Mingtang which is not authentic and dangerous. What's your achievement in this practice, Crane?

Hi. Did you do shatkarma kriyas? Did you work with asanas? Pranayama? Dhyana?

It' very true that all this depends on the certain method and teacher. I have no teacher and place where I live has no any good teacher available and I do what I can from books and videos. Just study theory. Can't travel at the moment. I posted some parallels between yoga and neidan alchemy. That' most of what I do now. So in general in Yoga the alchemy has almost same sequence - first some work with body and alignment - probably xin regulation in taoist texts. Some meditation is used which is similar to quiet sitting but there is no emphasis on it. The most job in the beginning is to activate ming - "shakti", prana and then they work with Xing when prana enters the central channel - they do kriya and tantra methods. So I am not arguing with you and can see much similarities in authentic methods. Your school against sitting at all and that' your way and you have transmission. Nothing wrong here. The problem arises when people work much with post heaven qi aka qigong, visualizations, breath and so on without having proper foundation for the practice and without experiencing subtle prana in main channels. I do not say that Dazuo is foundation in Neidan. I am currently reading Yoga Yagnavalkya text which is one of the most ancient text on yoga and the work with Ming is the foundation there as well but there is some xin regulation prior to it. Regards

What' wrong with theirs results? Do not look young?

But Shamatha and Vipassana are the part of their tradition. It' not Neidan. There are many dynamic practices that you forgot to mention here. I hope you won't state here that tummo is nothing to do with real transformation. Don't ask me to prove it.

Yes, you are right. The number 1 is "Monastic life" and it could be written to some of the students. But we were talking of Quanzhen methods in general. Number 6 is the practice of meditative sinking and it follow by practice with Ming. What kind of Xing methods were that for example? Yes, but Zhang Zhuan is not Ming method, is it? So you see where I am coming from. There are texts where Xing-xin methods are listed prior to Ming method. At least you agreed with this. I am not the expert and I do not have goal of arguing here. I found this information and it formed my point of view on it. There are many different methods out there and some people do Xing and Ming methods alongside and I am not saying that method of Ming is not important but it should not be stated that there is only one right method to start with and ignore sitting meditation. Or qigong, IMA and so on. Even we are not monks it helps to quiet the heart for the practice. But it should not be done for a long time. You have your teacher and you are right from your perspective but there are many other teachers and methods and you should not say it is all wrong. And by not any means I support Vitalii here and I say only on what theory my opinion is based. I have no teacher and "purely authentic" method and I do only some prliminary practice what you called as "sinking the xin". I wanted to clarify that it is NOT wrong at all what I am doing now. Also I try to practice some Ming method from a neigong system. That is what available for me at the moment. Best regards

And number 8 (melting of Xing which leads to its full refinement) seems to be same what I said "refinment of the post-heaven" what you deny. Where am I wrong here?

Shall I trust the information taken from one of the oficial Wu Lui Pai' site and article written by the student of your school? Why are these double standarts here, Mikhail? What are these numbers 6 & 7 if ont Dazuo and xin-Xing method? What is the "Discending of the heart" if not one of the Dazuo goal? As far as I understand it means concentration on the lower belly in seated meditation to bring a "fire" down to the tan tien? And "control of the psyche" by the concentration? Anyway xin-Xing methods follow by Ming method in Quanzhenjiao according to this article. These methods came from Buddhism but anyway neidan inherited it from Buddhism. It's strange from your side to neglect that fact that some authentic schools used these methods. And it' quite normal if a certain school is authentic or have authentic roots. It can be even a neigong method that your school denies. Regards

opendao: I don't know what schools you refer. In Yuxianpai (Northern, from Ma Danyang) they don't start with quite sitting and follow the idea "Ming first". In Wu-Liu Pai, which is Longmen basically, they start with Ming and Dazuo is prohibited. But a lot of book readers practice self-made methods and got no results. Who to believe? But feel free to decide. I know that many people do the same now: sit, breath, meditate, some qigong or yoga, stop thoughts etc. How many of them achieved high levels described in Daoist books? --------- Well... It' not everything so straight with Dazuo. The main problem is that that all these schools have roots in Quanzhenjiao which was divided into many branches and even in time of early Quanzhen there were differences in methods and there were seven "immortals" who taught differently. Here I found some information in Russian (it' said quite clear):

May be I was not accurate in my definition of this process. It' not refining of the body akin to calisthenics but refining of "ego". I do not know how it is defined in taoism. What is ego? In yoga they say about "karmic winds" (impurities) which block the prana circulation in the channels. From The Heart of Yoga by T. K. V. Desikachar From the description of the foundation of the 1st method in taoist school Yuxianpai: Первый этап Открытой Школы алхимии называется: Жу Шоу Гун Состоит из практики с внутренними органами Нэйцзанфугун, где с помощью специальных методов удаляют из органов Цзан и Фу накопленную болезненную ци, приводя их в состояние чистоты, гармонии и готовности к алхимическому преобразованию и практики алхимического восполнения Шэньсяньбутайгун, которая восполняет в теле ци предшествующего неба. What is this if not "refinement " of the post heaven as foundation? The difference could be in methods. But goal is the same Further: From the further description of your school method: 100 дневное заложение фундамента (срок зависит от возраста и состояния организма перед началом восполнения). Это мастерство этапа начального преобразования, на котором цзин превращается в ци. Он называется « заложением фундамента», так как именно на нем приготовляют «лекарство» и восполняют цзин, после чего переплавляют цзин в ци. I understand that this "foundation" here is nearly the same process of "nourishing jing" but in yoga they call it prana. Simply we can say that after refining of impurities jing or prana can enter the channels and thus we nourish "life" the essence. When prana enters sushumna this is akin to converting jing into qi. But the language is different. I just want to realize what is wrong in yoga practice with all this stuff they do. opendao: That's all common, but I see no Neidan here. It's all about "hormones" by holding breath, visualise etc, but Neidan goes opposite and works with different things (not hormones and channels everybody has). It's good that they start with the body, but Ming is not about body. Opposite way? As far as I understand Ming is eight extraordinary channels in the subtle body. On the video Rinpoche says that they open up thousands of channels inside of subtle body. Is not that "agni" the same as "pure yan" in neidan? I mentioned already that breath is only used in the beginning to move away karmic winds in the channels and to bring balance into the mind. And some asanas help in this process affecting channels and glands which can produce hormones and thus purge the blood and body. In Neidan probably they begin with sexual glands activation but this activates production of hormones and thus nourishing jing (life, kidneys). Is it not?

Yantra means trulkhor, so no classic yantra but classic trulkhor (tummo) It looks like this: Also there are few books on Tibetan yoga of interanal heat and it's all about visualizations and breath techniques with breath breath retention with bandhas. Nothing simialr to hatha yoga asanas.

No. Classic yantra sets are not similar to hatha at all! I can give you few links on tube. They are more static. Like tsalung. In the book there is only short text cited which follows by huge explanation by NNR. There is no pictures in original text. And no one seen original text. I know that NNR is serious person and quite qualified but it does not mean YY could not be changed for the sake of public demand. I will have to write more and more here on this and it will never stop. There are about 60-70 pages about this yoga where people discuss it and those people who have transmissions in both Indian and Tibetan yogas. So I won't be able to give information in such volume here. It' not my goal. I am not interested in Vajrayana anyway. It' very difficult path for the western mind. IMHO. And not for me. But I like the approach of Tulku Lobsang Rinpoche. But have not checked it and have no experience in it

Not on English board. Only in Russian on the traditional yoga forum. There are many people who are high level yoga practitioners. Some of them say it migh have traditional roots but NO clear evidence of that fact. Who has seen this text with description of every set? If something on the market it does not mean it is authentic automatically. There might be some authentic core with certain parts but all other could be invented recently. Let me ask you who got results in this yoga? Do you know anyone? There are many asanas which only professional acrobats could perform.

Well, there can be "false kundalini" arousal and that what I meant. This happens when people practice without transmission. Then they just arise they coarse inner dormant consciousness which is probably the same as post-heaven shen but I am not sure and I suppose only that first it must be refined and this is what done in Alchemy. As for texts on yoga I will refer to this video on Tibetan yoga (which I personally like very much but with little experience and it seems to be the same as Ming cultivation; I do not say by any means that what I say is the truth regarding these methods and I only suppose these are very close methods in general). The Rinpoche discloses some information from 8:00: They use regulation of mind, breath work and meditations in the beginning of the process of inner alchemy. And this is very common for all Asian traditions. There could be the distinctions in Southern Taoist schools which methods where set up by Chang Po-Tuan and there were not meditations at the initial stages but we have to read texts which are full of symbolism and are very difficult to understand without authentic teacher. This all is up a particular school and its methods. But there where many Northern Taoist schools which used quiet sitting even in the beginning and all of them including Southern ones have roots in Quanzhen school which employed many of Xing and xin methods in the beginning.

Well, there are no any authentic text on this yantra yoga. It does not seem to have ancient roots within Tibetan Yoga aka Tummo. NNR says he has text on it but no one seen it. So how much it is authentic is very questionable. I have the book on it and it seems very very difficult to do and resembles the hatha yoga in general rather than authentic Tibetan Yoga. I am not expert at all but many people say it was developed recently and not much people in the West got real results in this yoga. Remember this is high level yoga which is done on the level of dzogrim and must be practiced along with tantra within Vajrayana tradition where transmission is MUST have for everyone who want to benefit from it. First level is open for everyone but but next levels are only for the advanced practitioners who received transmission and practice tantra. It involves visualizations which resemble classic Tibetan tummo and pranayama and asana which are very resemble Indian hatha yoga but asanas are all dynamic akin to ashtanga yoga. I do not think it is suitable for the most of us. Regards