Antares

I can prove my statements that this is not lie from my side. I can post here the print of the screen from his old web-site where he called his school as "Zhen Dao Qigong". And that there was not proper name in Chinese and so on. I can post here many of these proofs and I could give other links but it will be offtopic, yes?

Okey. I will not reply to Vitaly's post. I will ask moderators here. Many people asked V. for the proof of his lineage for years. I myself was considering his "school" few years ago. It took me time to read his web-forum, talk to people about him and so on. So it took time from my life. Even now I have to spend my time for him. Why am I doing this? Why I do not hold my tongue on him? The answer is above in my previous post. What's next? Vitaly reported on my posts where I clearly explained where he is wrong but he continues to call me liar. Where I lied about him? All I said I can prove. There are many other evidences I mentioned. If I report to mods about his lie on me what's next? Will be he banned? Will he stop to fool people? But I can just hold my tongue and this is probably best option in this case. May be yes but may be not. He states that he practices Quanzhen meditations and teach others for money but just have a look on his life style. Posting on the web almost every day and call people liars when they say truth, speculate on taoism, arguing and so on. The only question what he can teach others? Is it relevant to the thread or not? And I stop here definitely. i will not reply anymore on V. posts as it takes my time

And BTW this is quite relative to the subject. http://taotemple.org/2012/11/01/four-pillars-sixteen-fortitudes-right-lifestyle/#practice-time But someone does not have enough recognition for that. The Fortitudes of Right Effort and Right Attitude The third and fourth Fortitudes are the Fortitude of Right Effort and the Fortitude of Right Attitude – and while we must distinguish one from the other, these Fortitudes go hand-in-hand, like a ladder you climb to keep moving upward. If your attitude is Right, you can apply Right Effort to your life and practice, but you will need to make an internaleffort that is Right in order to produce the Right Attitude, you see. Now, I do not mean “right” by some manufactured religious code or social standard, no. I mean that your Effort and Attitude must be situated in the Path of Truth and to that aim exclusively. This requires gradual development for sure, and will change as you grow, but it is relevant to note the importance of steering your focus toward the Center and its Light as much as possible, for you have a great mountain to climb; there is no point loitering about in fruitless ventures that may well bury you under an avalanche if you’re not careful. For example, blindly (or knowingly)contributing to the corrupt systems of the world that ultimately bring ill health and disservice to yourself, your fellow humans and to the Earth, is not a product of Right Effort. The willful participation in such systems under the flimsy justification that you need to do so in order to live or that you have “no choice” is not a product of Right Attitude. Such issues are a matter for deeper consideration – your Life may depend on it, as your karma and your success hang in the balance!

Moderator: Then move on. If you wish to continue to debate validity, create another thread. I feel that continuing this debate in this thread would be harassment. Well, I would stop but Vitaly applied to me and I only replied to his posts. As for creating new thread for these debates I personally do not see the point for that as this thread has no any concern about authentic teaching of Quanzhen sect. I only post here in order to express my opinion that it's nonsense to discuss such issues on the forum when there is NO REAL KNOWLEDGE about taosim and people do not really discuss taoism but their interpretations of authentic taoism and thus it makes no any sense to stay on the subject. Vitaly has no any concern to discuss Quanzhen and hi has his personal goal here. So any further discussion will make no sense if Vitaly has no any relation to Quanzhen sect - this is what he states here that he has. But you are right, I already said enough.

I have read your web-forum few years ago, I spoke a lot to one of your students, I read many of your posts on your forum and it is obviously that you are fake neidan teacher who decieves people for the sake of personal enrichment. There are so many evidences against you that I can not hold my tongue when I can see here how you crave money. Russian web and money were not enough for you and you came here for the same reason. Even exercises in your qigong have the same names as in qigong which instructors' workshop you attended. This is not lie as you always repeat. I read Rusian web last years and I know your strory very very well. what we can see here that only your lie about your teacher in neidan and in taichi. if I post here the photo of your "teacher' teacher" with all students he taught taichi would you be able to point out who is Lu Shi Yan on that photo? no any proof at all and bla bla bla as many years in Russian web Diluted qigong with visualizations, zhan zhuan and park style taichi with no lineage. why should i attend such a funny seminar and pay you?good joke!

Vitaly, I have never attended their seminars only because I live faraway and have no funds for travellenig faraway. But everyone who practice well can meet their teachers and try out their methods. With you problem is that it is not possible to see your teacher bc he exists in your imagination and I hardly believe you can distinguish your fancies and reality. BTW right time schedule is not only the concern in taoism but the virtue as well - do not fool and do not harm others.

Because this is fake self made school. In the beginning he taught qigong. But then suddenly his school turned to be Neidan school after he stumbled upon taoist immortal in a Ukranian park when was doing taichi. And he had no even proper name of it in Chinese and there were only 2 words in the name of the school. Then people said to him there must be 3 characters and he added third one. Also ask him about his "taichi" lineage. He can not prove his taichi lineage as well and it is easy to check where he lies.

Vitaly, I have no goal arguing with you. It is no of any avail. This questions were asked to you many times for many years in Russian web and you did not answer them. You just have nothing to say regarding zhendao and began to accuse me bc I do not speak Chinese. What gives you a right for that? I do not hold funny seminars and do not decieve people concerning spirituality and I must not speak Chinese. You have learnt Chinese for few years and you think it gives you rigth to mislead people teaching them doubtful qigong as Neidan? Such the joke! I have no any desire to talk to you any longer as it would be waste of time

How did come to this great conclusion? There is no such name of school IN CHINESE. Not even in English. Some people so trustful and they are too lazy to do proper research. Maximum they can google and then begin arguing. This is "normal" for the West this time. There are many new age schools. Hundreds. As for Vitaly just watch where he takes information: books in English and Russian, qigong seminars, internet, mixing things up and then holding retreats. Such the joke, Dragon. But I do not mind, some people need to meet somebody like that to get experience. In order to realize what is true somebody needs to know what is false first.

zhendao does not exist in China and this is truth.

It does not matter whether you were instructor or was in his workshop. The main concern that your system has much in common with this system according to information of those ones who took your seminar and that you have no lineage in Quanzhen sect. Otherwise there should be evidence for that. For mods. I stop here but Vitaliy should prove his statements in relation to Quanzhen sect. Otherwise it will be like circus here. This is very sadly to watch it.

So you deny that you took Xu Mintang instructor' seminar? Yes?

Here some people complain about legit. concerns on the TTB regarding certain systems or teachers. This is not my goal to discredit anybody here but I can not realize why some people claim to be masters without any prove of certification or achievement in Taoist arts. I asked a moderator here and I was replied that it is not ToS' administration concerns if someone legit or not. In other thread there was concern about a system of Xu Mingtan. It is well known that Vitaliy was instructor in that qigong system. The main exercise is Zhan Zhuan there and seating dazuo and visualization of red ball and MCO. That' the main source of Vitalii's "Neidan". There is much similarities. I just let other people know where this "quanzhen" is derived from. it has nothing to do with neidan at all. If I am wrong Vitaliy should bring any evidence that he has relation to Quanzhen. Hope this post will not disappear.

What is the source of this schedule and practice? Which period? Only meditation and chanting?

This is second time. You even deleted one of my posts where I brought evidence about commercial system and said that it was not so important to know if there was lineage or not. Now you seem unhappy that I talk about importance of authenticity of any other system . Peace to you.

Of course nothing dangerous should be on any workshop. The quote I posted is from the same system but from another instructor. He changed the name of the system and explain things from different point regarding this system. If you were not sure why posted then?

You always see what you want to see. I am not talking of the book but about what is Neikong and Qigong and about definition of Neigong and about dangers coming from commercial sources. This is not first time when you say that it does not matter if something legit or not. It seems to me that many people really do not care about this. If you give them a book they can practice it wothouts any doubts and talk on the forum. But if you post another information about cultivation they might say "ahh stop it, just do it... we do not care". LOL

Can you find THESE practices in taoists texts? A lot of standing seems to be Yin cultivation. And that' what they do in this qigong. You say that nothing dangerous there but let' read what they say: So they take pictures from taoist classic texts and mix it up, calling upon to cultivate Yin Shen naming it "Immortal Embryo" and "salvation". Classic mistake. And this is dangerous. I could not find information in authentic texts that one should cultivate Yin Shen by means of standing which leads to astral projections and thus further to Yan Shen cultivation. I just have found the picture of the guy who wrote this article. He seems to have excess of Yin. And he teaches others. But this is typical for the West and he is not only one. I would suggest you to learn taoist classics and not trust people who just say that they cool bc they do something for a long time. Cultivation is serious process and authentic stuff is very very rare. I do not think it could be found in books and video. May be some basics only. Neigong must be the same as Neidan = internal elixir. Which nourishes Yan Shen. But this is not Yin Shen cultivation. Who out of those teachers who sell a stuff can explain all this and give you correct practice? But they sell books and video's. Regards

On web forums when I was investigating about this system. This is classical new age qigong which is not known in China. But easy to sell to people in the West where people love this stuff. As far as I know Martynova added a lot of her personal stuff when she did "translation". I will not be surprised if it was translated couple times from one language to another. I see it is not your concern but the title of the thread is THE BEST Neigong teacher. How you know it is Neigong at all? Why is the best? What is your personal achievement? Dangerous because it has mixture of different stuff and people experiment on themselves. The main exercise is tree stance there and I doubt it works with prenatal chi, and everything what is based on post heaven chi cultivation dangerous bc can cause deviations. You have to read classic taoist texts before giving advises to other people. You guys picking up different stuff on the market, mix things together and recommend this stuff each other without having real achievements in these systems and then asking what is dangerous. Good jokes. No one cares about authenticity at all.

I would not recommend THIS book. As far as I know it's translated badly. And this qigong system is kinda version of Xu Mingtang which is not authentic and dangerous. What's your achievement in this practice, Crane?

Hi. Did you do shatkarma kriyas? Did you work with asanas? Pranayama? Dhyana?

It' very true that all this depends on the certain method and teacher. I have no teacher and place where I live has no any good teacher available and I do what I can from books and videos. Just study theory. Can't travel at the moment. I posted some parallels between yoga and neidan alchemy. That' most of what I do now. So in general in Yoga the alchemy has almost same sequence - first some work with body and alignment - probably xin regulation in taoist texts. Some meditation is used which is similar to quiet sitting but there is no emphasis on it. The most job in the beginning is to activate ming - "shakti", prana and then they work with Xing when prana enters the central channel - they do kriya and tantra methods. So I am not arguing with you and can see much similarities in authentic methods. Your school against sitting at all and that' your way and you have transmission. Nothing wrong here. The problem arises when people work much with post heaven qi aka qigong, visualizations, breath and so on without having proper foundation for the practice and without experiencing subtle prana in main channels. I do not say that Dazuo is foundation in Neidan. I am currently reading Yoga Yagnavalkya text which is one of the most ancient text on yoga and the work with Ming is the foundation there as well but there is some xin regulation prior to it. Regards

What' wrong with theirs results? Do not look young?

But Shamatha and Vipassana are the part of their tradition. It' not Neidan. There are many dynamic practices that you forgot to mention here. I hope you won't state here that tummo is nothing to do with real transformation. Don't ask me to prove it.

Yes, you are right. The number 1 is "Monastic life" and it could be written to some of the students. But we were talking of Quanzhen methods in general. Number 6 is the practice of meditative sinking and it follow by practice with Ming. What kind of Xing methods were that for example? Yes, but Zhang Zhuan is not Ming method, is it? So you see where I am coming from. There are texts where Xing-xin methods are listed prior to Ming method. At least you agreed with this. I am not the expert and I do not have goal of arguing here. I found this information and it formed my point of view on it. There are many different methods out there and some people do Xing and Ming methods alongside and I am not saying that method of Ming is not important but it should not be stated that there is only one right method to start with and ignore sitting meditation. Or qigong, IMA and so on. Even we are not monks it helps to quiet the heart for the practice. But it should not be done for a long time. You have your teacher and you are right from your perspective but there are many other teachers and methods and you should not say it is all wrong. And by not any means I support Vitalii here and I say only on what theory my opinion is based. I have no teacher and "purely authentic" method and I do only some prliminary practice what you called as "sinking the xin". I wanted to clarify that it is NOT wrong at all what I am doing now. Also I try to practice some Ming method from a neigong system. That is what available for me at the moment. Best regards