Antares

And number 8 (melting of Xing which leads to its full refinement) seems to be same what I said "refinment of the post-heaven" what you deny. Where am I wrong here?

Shall I trust the information taken from one of the oficial Wu Lui Pai' site and article written by the student of your school? Why are these double standarts here, Mikhail? What are these numbers 6 & 7 if ont Dazuo and xin-Xing method? What is the "Discending of the heart" if not one of the Dazuo goal? As far as I understand it means concentration on the lower belly in seated meditation to bring a "fire" down to the tan tien? And "control of the psyche" by the concentration? Anyway xin-Xing methods follow by Ming method in Quanzhenjiao according to this article. These methods came from Buddhism but anyway neidan inherited it from Buddhism. It's strange from your side to neglect that fact that some authentic schools used these methods. And it' quite normal if a certain school is authentic or have authentic roots. It can be even a neigong method that your school denies. Regards

opendao: I don't know what schools you refer. In Yuxianpai (Northern, from Ma Danyang) they don't start with quite sitting and follow the idea "Ming first". In Wu-Liu Pai, which is Longmen basically, they start with Ming and Dazuo is prohibited. But a lot of book readers practice self-made methods and got no results. Who to believe? But feel free to decide. I know that many people do the same now: sit, breath, meditate, some qigong or yoga, stop thoughts etc. How many of them achieved high levels described in Daoist books? --------- Well... It' not everything so straight with Dazuo. The main problem is that that all these schools have roots in Quanzhenjiao which was divided into many branches and even in time of early Quanzhen there were differences in methods and there were seven "immortals" who taught differently. Here I found some information in Russian (it' said quite clear):

May be I was not accurate in my definition of this process. It' not refining of the body akin to calisthenics but refining of "ego". I do not know how it is defined in taoism. What is ego? In yoga they say about "karmic winds" (impurities) which block the prana circulation in the channels. From The Heart of Yoga by T. K. V. Desikachar From the description of the foundation of the 1st method in taoist school Yuxianpai: Первый этап Открытой Школы алхимии называется: Жу Шоу Гун Состоит из практики с внутренними органами Нэйцзанфугун, где с помощью специальных методов удаляют из органов Цзан и Фу накопленную болезненную ци, приводя их в состояние чистоты, гармонии и готовности к алхимическому преобразованию и практики алхимического восполнения Шэньсяньбутайгун, которая восполняет в теле ци предшествующего неба. What is this if not "refinement " of the post heaven as foundation? The difference could be in methods. But goal is the same Further: From the further description of your school method: 100 дневное заложение фундамента (срок зависит от возраста и состояния организма перед началом восполнения). Это мастерство этапа начального преобразования, на котором цзин превращается в ци. Он называется « заложением фундамента», так как именно на нем приготовляют «лекарство» и восполняют цзин, после чего переплавляют цзин в ци. I understand that this "foundation" here is nearly the same process of "nourishing jing" but in yoga they call it prana. Simply we can say that after refining of impurities jing or prana can enter the channels and thus we nourish "life" the essence. When prana enters sushumna this is akin to converting jing into qi. But the language is different. I just want to realize what is wrong in yoga practice with all this stuff they do. opendao: That's all common, but I see no Neidan here. It's all about "hormones" by holding breath, visualise etc, but Neidan goes opposite and works with different things (not hormones and channels everybody has). It's good that they start with the body, but Ming is not about body. Opposite way? As far as I understand Ming is eight extraordinary channels in the subtle body. On the video Rinpoche says that they open up thousands of channels inside of subtle body. Is not that "agni" the same as "pure yan" in neidan? I mentioned already that breath is only used in the beginning to move away karmic winds in the channels and to bring balance into the mind. And some asanas help in this process affecting channels and glands which can produce hormones and thus purge the blood and body. In Neidan probably they begin with sexual glands activation but this activates production of hormones and thus nourishing jing (life, kidneys). Is it not?

Yantra means trulkhor, so no classic yantra but classic trulkhor (tummo) It looks like this: Also there are few books on Tibetan yoga of interanal heat and it's all about visualizations and breath techniques with breath breath retention with bandhas. Nothing simialr to hatha yoga asanas.

No. Classic yantra sets are not similar to hatha at all! I can give you few links on tube. They are more static. Like tsalung. In the book there is only short text cited which follows by huge explanation by NNR. There is no pictures in original text. And no one seen original text. I know that NNR is serious person and quite qualified but it does not mean YY could not be changed for the sake of public demand. I will have to write more and more here on this and it will never stop. There are about 60-70 pages about this yoga where people discuss it and those people who have transmissions in both Indian and Tibetan yogas. So I won't be able to give information in such volume here. It' not my goal. I am not interested in Vajrayana anyway. It' very difficult path for the western mind. IMHO. And not for me. But I like the approach of Tulku Lobsang Rinpoche. But have not checked it and have no experience in it

Not on English board. Only in Russian on the traditional yoga forum. There are many people who are high level yoga practitioners. Some of them say it migh have traditional roots but NO clear evidence of that fact. Who has seen this text with description of every set? If something on the market it does not mean it is authentic automatically. There might be some authentic core with certain parts but all other could be invented recently. Let me ask you who got results in this yoga? Do you know anyone? There are many asanas which only professional acrobats could perform.

Well, there can be "false kundalini" arousal and that what I meant. This happens when people practice without transmission. Then they just arise they coarse inner dormant consciousness which is probably the same as post-heaven shen but I am not sure and I suppose only that first it must be refined and this is what done in Alchemy. As for texts on yoga I will refer to this video on Tibetan yoga (which I personally like very much but with little experience and it seems to be the same as Ming cultivation; I do not say by any means that what I say is the truth regarding these methods and I only suppose these are very close methods in general). The Rinpoche discloses some information from 8:00: They use regulation of mind, breath work and meditations in the beginning of the process of inner alchemy. And this is very common for all Asian traditions. There could be the distinctions in Southern Taoist schools which methods where set up by Chang Po-Tuan and there were not meditations at the initial stages but we have to read texts which are full of symbolism and are very difficult to understand without authentic teacher. This all is up a particular school and its methods. But there where many Northern Taoist schools which used quiet sitting even in the beginning and all of them including Southern ones have roots in Quanzhen school which employed many of Xing and xin methods in the beginning.

Well, there are no any authentic text on this yantra yoga. It does not seem to have ancient roots within Tibetan Yoga aka Tummo. NNR says he has text on it but no one seen it. So how much it is authentic is very questionable. I have the book on it and it seems very very difficult to do and resembles the hatha yoga in general rather than authentic Tibetan Yoga. I am not expert at all but many people say it was developed recently and not much people in the West got real results in this yoga. Remember this is high level yoga which is done on the level of dzogrim and must be practiced along with tantra within Vajrayana tradition where transmission is MUST have for everyone who want to benefit from it. First level is open for everyone but but next levels are only for the advanced practitioners who received transmission and practice tantra. It involves visualizations which resemble classic Tibetan tummo and pranayama and asana which are very resemble Indian hatha yoga but asanas are all dynamic akin to ashtanga yoga. I do not think it is suitable for the most of us. Regards

Lobsang Tulku Rinpoche is talking about Lu Jong, Tsa Lung and mind work:

And it seems to me original Quanzhen method had Xing cultivation as foundation. Ming method as foudation was set up by the founder all of Southern branch Chang Potuan. So I believe that only Southern branches are worth our concern as Xing methods are very difficult to cultivate proparly for the majority of western people imho. But some people may get more benefits other way around The question if northern schools are open for westerners and whether they preserved the method of ming

Quanzhen was divided into northern and southern branches. All northern ones begin with loads of Xing methods and often require becoming a monk. Longmen is northern branch and it is questionable whether they (Wang Liping school) preserve Ming method. They can only say that they have it but... When I asked about Quanzhen methods here I had the query about Ming methods first of all. There are many Xing methods can be found. Or it might be heart (xin) methods only. Many monks in China can read Wang Liping novels but it does not mean anything to serious people. So I suppose only few southern branches preserved Ming method or teach it openly. Authentic Quanzhen' Ming method has been lost probably. And everything about immortallity could be the nice myth. Wang Chungyan died at "normal" age as many others. We can only believe that wonders exist.

That' it. All of them are authentic but methods are absolutely different. And all of them belong to Quanzhenjiao. All methods are right. I think it's better to choose master but not school. I have idea what to practice. There is always something what we can do. Even method from a book can be right in particular moment. Transmission helps but is not must. If somebody asks huge money for transmission that would not be authentic but commercial. We have to be honest and do not lie each other

Wang Liping teaches seated method in the beginning what is wrong accroding to the core taoist scripture. This method is listed there as one of false methods. Taking into account that factor that nowadays many people just earn money on spirituality I treat them very carefully. There are options and I choose what the right to my feelings but not to smb's else. I never pay such ammount of money for seated meds. And I do not care who is he. That' all.

You have to read that book with history of the Monastery. They have two monasteries (south and north )and method was not lost.

I meant that even short time is enough somitimes to find some information regarding particular schools and teachers I did not say how I estimate schools. I said I had no funds and desire to pay big sum for seminar. You say you learned enough. Ok, I will listen to you as you more experienced it this study. What the main authentic text is basis of your school' method? Any evidence of this? Please do not say that you must not bring any of them. Just one documented is enough

Tao, I asked people about Quanzhen methods. I know about Wang Liping and his school does not suit me. And I can not see connection of Wang Liping to the Quanzhen' school from my amateur perspective. White Cloud Monastery is main monastery of Quanzhenjiao Pai. What is the connection of Wang Liping to Quanzhen?

That practice seems to work with sun and moon balancing yan and yin in the body. And this is not Longmen' practice and it comes from White Clouds monastery whithin Quanzhen school. We are talking about Quanzhen school

Why to pay 3000$ for meds which are free in books?

But you paid 3500$ for seminar? It' your choice and I do not judge you. There are another options at my place. There are some taoist people near by who teach authentic stuff and ask money only for the rent and for class what one can pay. This is honest and not 3000 + $$$ for med. Another issue - can you find Wang Lipings method in authentic text? Could you give me link to the text please?

Exuse me, after university I was to work for government organisation for 2 years with wages 105$ per MONTH. 50$ I paid for bills and 50 $ for food. 5$ I had for music etc. Now it is 300-400$ per month at my place and bills almost half. When I contacted WL's school they asked me to pay 3500$ for 5 days seminar. May be you should not judge people your way? I must work all year with no food and live with parents in order to pay this gentlman for his meditation technique which I can get in a book. If he teaches me how no to eat... then may be... But thanks for your honest opinion about me. I need to get another job but there are other options. If I get job for 1000 $ then I will have to work 12-15 hours. When to practice sitting then?

That' not Wang Liping's version of meditation as far as I understood. Is there anything in common in both of these methods?

Hmm, I did 5 minutes search and I found information about doctor Baolin Wu who transmitts some practical Quanzhen' aspects. And it' far not sitting method akin to Wang Liping' who seems to be a little commercial to me. I do not want to offend anybody but money WL is asking for his teaching is too much and I have another information about Quanzhen' (Longmen) authentic methods. But thanks.

from second link: Anyway he was over 100 when he passed away. The spirit is more important for me. Even if he is at his 90+ on the video he was great

RE: Can the Practice of Stillness-Movement add to your Martial arts ability?