Antares

Ah, yeah, I missed this one. I can not agree that' right. I am looking forward to hear about ming. I heard it correlates with channels - "water" which feeds energy in the body? Thanks.

And it seems strange for me personally. Now there are many differenet sects among asian traditions (western branches) who state they have something special what other ones don't have. There are many examples when people receive "transmission" and get some transpersonal experience but not always they can control it and not every transmission is "clean". If person can not regulate his/her mind and there is no technique for it even then it is very very strange. I would think twice if it worths to deal with such organizations. There are many authentic schools who have teached it for centuries and it is based on human experience and then somebody tells it is wrong as method. Very strange

opendao I wanted to say it was unknown for the rest of the world until now. And that there in NOT only one Taoism among spiritual traditions, it was closed and it is still closed. We know nothing about contemporary taoism and teachers. And it was supressed after cultural revolution. I only compared it with other well known traditions. And your teacher and WLP school was not known in the West. We can't trace it back the history of this school and if there were spiritual achievements. I have not heard about anyone who got sick by the practice of seated meditation Ahhh, NO ONE SAYS HERE THAT IT IS MAIN METHOD. I wrote that it is one of the methods among many others and that there are MANY preparatory techniques follow by seated meditation. Da Zuo is may be only one of them for BEGINNERS and there could many others more advanced. We quoted few excerpts but could you quote taoist texts where it is said that meditations are NOT USED AT ALL? Bc you wrote that "It what Neidan thinks about any meditation". But you have to explain first what is the Ming. Because we talk about some idea without definiton. I'll put it like that, you say: "we have ming but will not tell you what it is but you should buy it...". I ask what is it but you can not explain what you offer. Now one has to go faraway to your place and spend a lot money without knowing what he is going to get. May be it is just selling some idea, how we know? I have another idea of this. Post heaven and pre-heaven are our usual persobal awareness and pure perception beyond it. How somebody can give you another perception if you can not regulate your mind and breath can you explain it please? I just can not understand this. And I do not say it is main method once again

You said that yuan qi can't be percieved directly. So what are the signs of restored yuan jing could you describe? We have to determine what we are talking about. Otherwise it would be speculation of words which no one really realizes. These definitions come from ancient culture and we deal with our understandings. Or we should look for some analogies in other traditions in order to understand fully what we are talking about . What is Ming and Xing exactly? I don't mean anything like shen or "spirit" or "soul" etc. We have texts here with translations of old Chinese and trying to undesrstand and compare it with the words we use in language at this time. You propose to compare with those ancient texts. Ok. But who really understands those symbols? Chinese tradition was lost and what is the qualification of contemporary masters? For example in India and Tibet there are many authentic unbroken lineages which survived and there is no problem with understandings of texts. The methods I quoted seem very similar in both traditions. You say that was not the method at all. May be you are right, but may be it is only what your teacher says to you. You see where I am coming from. Only one unknown teacher in China says that all this wrong vs many many other masters in alive traditions where this method has been used for centuries. We quoted few excerpts that it was used in Tradition. Of course the transmission is diserable but I do not see where it is said that this method is WRONG or false. I see you are talking about from the perspective of your school. And this is fine. Your teacher has transmission and you have texts. I wonder from a researcher position about your statement that it can not be uderstood from books. There are many methods described in yoga how to regulate breath and quiet the mind and they are known for thousands of years. I understand that you are talking about Taoism here but my query comes from my curiosity. Nothing wrong with Taoisim and your school until you say that all other methods are wrong and that other schools lost authentic method. That's what you actually declare. In yoga there are many preparatory breath techniques which purge channels and bring balance to the mind. There is even the theory that many methods came from India to China and now we have situation that Chinese tradition says that methods of Indian tradition are wrong. I understand that there can be unique method in Taoisim and I only ask to shed the light on this issue because I can see that the method of quieting the mind by regulation of breath is described in both traditons. You say that albeit this method is described it was not the main method. But no one states here that it was. In every authentic tradition one should recieve transmission and there are many preparatory techniques. Quieting the mind is one among them. But you say that according to the texts it was almost prohibited. I did not see where it is said that this method is wrong. I understand that DULL seating is wrong and that it was false method for itself without preparation and if done incorrectly.

May be, but it makes sense when one has real transmission then it would be xing+ming cultivation. If no transmission this will be wrong method for itself.

It's nice to have someone pointing out the true path versus false paths of neidan... So we know where to go, and it's not a secret that no one can learn. But you have to be aware that Opendao points out only approach of Wu Lui Pai school where they begin with Xing and Ming cultivation. There are many other quite authentic schools (not only in Taoism) which begin with Xing cultivation only. That does not mean theirs methods are "false paths", that's just another approach. Even in China there are few sects which begin with Xing cultivation. BTW you were Max' student for few years. Does not he teach ming cultivation method? There is also Ya Mu on the TTB who transmits internal alchemy. You have to read this forum more thoroughly. Up to you where to go and what to practise

I have not stumbled upon such recommendation as "to stop thoughts by will" in any traditional text. Concentrating the mind - yes, usually on the process of breath. In Indian yoga they use mantras. Pranayama and bandhas to regulate post-heaven breath. Of course, this is not Taoist methods but I have no idea about Taoist tradition, I only quoted some translations to show that it was used in China as well among Taoists masters. I am sure it is not only the method and it should not be. This is not the first stage and I can not say it correlates with "building foundation". It is not "foundation" and it is next more advanced stage and requires transmission. But some people practise some preparatory techniques on their own without transmission which are well described in some books. I do not recommend this to anyone as most preferable method. It's always better to find good teacher. But it is not easy to find one who is knowledgeable and inexpensive. There are many teachers who says they know a lot and that they are very knowledgeable but only few of them are worth to deal with. That' why I think people discuss here what they can do on their own. I do what I can do right now and when I find good teacher I will ask for transmission. Personally for it helps to stabilize the shen and I feel more energy, more joy, more love... That's how it works for me

Well, real Neigung must nourish your pre-heaven "treasures". Other neigung systems can give some energy but deplete pre-heaven jing. What does this neigung really do? It seems like qigong exercises for "internal power" and health. I want to be wrong but it might work only with post heaven qi. May be masters practiced something else along with this set for the pre-heaven qi cultivation. It is not explicit in the book what was the method for the alchemy work. It is not in the book imho. This set is only part of the neikung system imho

I have to admit that I never been to China and never spoke to any traditional teacher of Taoism and thus my opinion is based only on what I have read in books. Your teacher says that all those texts are incorrect translations of Taoist scriptures. It's may be true but I can not just trust you and your teacher. I have reasons for that. First of all we don't know what was the true Wu Lu Pai's method in the past and if it correlates with the method they use and teach you now. We do not know situation in Taoist tradition in contemporary China. There are loads of teachers in Asia who teach methods which can not be proved for their authenticity and people have to trust them. Second, I have nothing against your personal experience and I only study different oriental scriptures and I can see many meditations techniques are described there. It's what I said in my previous post. I can give you many links to the yoga scriptures where regulations of breath are described. As for Taoist scriptures I can refer only to the English translations as I do not read Chines. For example here is http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm#Lu The Writings Attributed to Master Zhang San Feng: Nobody really knows whether or not one of the numerous persons called "Master Zhang San Feng" actually wrote these short treatises or commentaries attributed to him. They may have been documents compiled, redacted, edited, or composed by persons associated with a Taoist school where Master Zhang San Feng is respected or revered. They may have been compiled or written hundreds of years after Master Zhang San Feng died or disappeared. This is also true for writings attributed to Lao Tzu. The official Taoist cannon consists of thousands of documents composed over many centuries since 500 BCE. The documents are part of the extensive Taoist written tradition, and the exact author of a particular document is sometimes uncertain. Writings on the Tao by Master Chang Sanfeng This extensive collection of documents claims to be based on the excellent work by Thomas Cleary, Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook, 1991. I don't think Mr. Cleary attributed so many texts to Chang Sanfeng. In Internal Alchemy there are also three stages, accumulating the essence and chi is the first stage, opening and closing passages is the second stage, building the foundation and refine the self is the third stage. Begin with the first stage, is basically to purify the mind and to abstain from desire, first close the external three treasures (ear, eye, mouth), and nurture the internal three treasures (essence, chi, spirit). (Section 2) Condense the spirit, means collecting one’s purified mind to enter into the inside. When the mind is not yet purified, don’t close the eyes, first encourage the mind to come back, be cool and indifferent, then bring the mind to the energy center, this is called condensing the spirit. When the spirit is condensed, it is like sitting on top of a tall mountain and looking at the mountains and waters, like putting up a sky lamp lighting up every darkness and obscurity, this is the meaning of condensing the spirit on emptiness. Regulating the breath is not difficult, when the mind-spirit is quiet, following the breath naturally, I only abide in the naturalness, this when combined with spirit lighting downward, is what means by regulating the breath. Regulating the breath, means mixing Yin Qiao Chi with mind’s chi in chi center. Speaking of the Dao in Plain Words Attributed to Zhang Sang-feng Translated by Li Siming, 2011 Sections 1-17, Chinese characters and English translation Condensing the mind under the naval is called condensing the spirit, returning the chi under the naval is called regulating the breath. When spirit leans with breath, abide in natural cleanliness is called “not forgetting”, allow for natural cleanliness is called “not assisting”. Not forgetting and not assisting use silence and softness, breath is active and mind at ease. See nothingness as the place to keep the mind, see dim silence as home for breath and spirit, again and again, purify and purify, all of a sudden spirit and breathe both forgotten, spirit and energy fused. The Yang suddenly arise like one is drunk. True appearing and disappearing, happens when the mystical gate is realized. In scriptures what named as “innate”, “real”, “original” arise from the Yin-Yang furnace, from the dark-unconscious-silence, like one appear from obscurity, you can use this to read Internal Alchemy scriptures. (Section 4) During meditation, the most important is to condense the spirit and regulate the breath, use calmness to bring back order, refrain from assisting and forgetting, none will not gain kungfu by day. Condensing the spirit and regulating the breath, only need flat mind and harmonized energy. When mind is flatten spirit is condensed, when energy is harmonized breath is regulated. The word “flatten” is wonderful, when no wave arise in the mind it is flatten, mind abide in it is called flat, flat is in the center. When the mind is in it, there is no wave. Ancient immortal said: “Regulate the real breath, refine the non-spirit spirit.” Real breath is the breath when the breath stops; non-spirit spirit is the spirit of the spirit. To sum up one need to empty the human mind, embrace the Dao mind, return this Dao mind back to emptiness, dark and silence, save in the center, and one can nurture the real breath, obtain the non-spirit spirit. Commentary on Ancestor Lu's Hundred-Character Tablet Attributed to the Taoist Master Chang San-Feng Nuturing energy, forget words and guard it. Conquer the mind, do nondoing. In activity and quietude, know the source progenitor. There is no thing; whom else do you seek? Real constancy should respond to people; In responding to people, it is essential not to get confused. When you don't get confused, your nature is naturally stable; When your nature is stable, energy naturally returns. When energy returns, Elixir spontaneously crystallizes, In the pot pairing water and fire. Yin and yang arise, alternating over and over again, Everywhere producing the sound of thunder. White clouds assemble on the summit, Sweet dew bathes the polar mountain. Having drunk the wine of longevity, You wander free; who can know you? You sit and listen to the stringless tune, You clearly understand the mechanism of creation. The whole of these twenty verses is a ladder straight to heaven." - Thomas Cleary, Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook. Translated and edited by Thomas Cleary. Boston, Shambhala, 1991. 281 pages. ISBN: 0877735190. p. 185 "Breathing Out - Touching the Root of Heaven, One's heart opens; The Dragon slips by like water.. Breathing In - Standing on the Root of Earth, One's heart is still and deep; The Tiger's claw cannot be moved. As you go on breathing in this frame of mind, with these associations, alternating between movement and stillness, it is important that the focus of your mind does not shift. Let the true breath come and go, a subtle continuum on the brink of existence. Tune the breathing until you get breath without breathing; become one with it, and then the spirit can be solidified and the elixir can be made." - Chang San-Feng, Commentary on Ancestor Lu's Hundred-Character Tablet Translated by Thomas Cleary, Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook, 1991, p. 187. ---------------------------------------------- I personally do not think the translation could be so bad that it is incorrect words in general . And it correlates with yoga ancient texts on meditation. For example Vijnan Bhairav Tantra

Xor, opendao is referring to the authentic texts and his teacher who is lineage holder in Taoist tradition. Other opinions are based on books and other interpretations made by laymen or people who have some experience in qigong. There is the difference between traditional neidan and it's diluted from which is qigong. Latter uses only terminology but not the method of neidan. Another approach is neigong which can use both methods of neidan and qigong. But qigong for itself is limited and works only with post-heaven qi.

Can't argue with you but in the quote above it is not said that any meditation is stupid. It's may be only words against DULL seating akin to diluted Chan' meditations. I do not support Vitalii's point of view but say that many other authentic traditions use "meditations". In Dzogchen or authentic Yoga there are loads of alchemical meditations. "Regulating the mind" is result but that does not mean it could not be used as "technique". It is used in many Asian traditions and could be used in Neidan. The problem is that there are very little amount of authentic Taoist teachers and we can't be sure that you have one. That's good that you say your opinion here but we should know who is your teacher and if he is the real master. I do not say who is right in your arguments but may be both of you mistake in something. We can only believe that you have real transmission. There is another Taoist teacher here on the TTB and he teaches seated meditation. Your opinion is based on interpretation of your school.

Hi, opendao. Thank you for your posts. Could you elaborate a little more this statement on depleting Pre-Heaven essence in qigong sets which do not use visualizations and intensive breath and vigor movements and so on. For example in taichi forms there are slow fluent motions which could build and regulate Post- Heaven qi. What is a cause of depletion Pre-Heaven essence in such cases? I believe it would be so if one does some strenuous actions which go over somebody's limits what requires Pre-heaven qi to remove stress and bring body-mind back to balance but if is done within boundaries of normal mindful activities why it will have negative consequences for Yuan Qi? Every time when we build Hou Tian we deplete Xiang Tian? P.s. Edited later: I see what you mean: the intensive work with Hou Tian (even for health and power issues) hastens the depletion of Originate essence. And it seems that your point is that there is no need to build Hou Tian prior to have experience with Xian Tian. But there is simple issue - if one has weak post heaven qi and one's body is sick or unbalanced how to find way to Xian Tian not having healthy post heaven mind and body? Is it anything about "transmission" which is not in Qigong systems?

Hi, Kinsale. Welcome to the TTB. What neigung are you doing now? DM's from his book?

According to Ron Teeguarden the secret of longevity is in Goji soup and He Shou Wu. http://www.dragonherbs.com/prodinfo.asp?number=542

You don't seem to understand what I wrote about Babaji. It's very simple: 1) The myth of immortal Babaji is coming from kriya yoga 2) Kriya yoga is set of kriyas 3) Kriyas are part of nath tradition but not Babaji's tradition 4) Many people use the name Babaji in order to make their lineage real. 5) You believe only what people write in their books 6) Up to you what to believe to

I editted my previous post and I explained how I know this. That person lived in India for many years and talked to many gurus and no one confirmed that Babaji is person. But it is known that Kriya yoga is coming from nath lineage, so it is simple conclusion that kriyas are nath's tradition techniques and thus Babaji is myth. You said "Not true...". I explained you why Babaji is myth. There is no point to believe in Babaji as immortal person until you meet him in person. Better to let go it and practise. Otherwise those people who make statements about Babaji would not get older and would not die. But as you can see they die. The same is for taoist who say about physical immortality. Have you seen any taoist immortal? What is the point to discuss it on the forum?

Are you familar with Babaji or you hold a candle when Babaji initiated Lahiri or might be you just read in a book about Lahiri's experience? When you meet Babaji in person only then you can say what is true or not. There are many other examples on how somebody was initiated by Babaji but obviously they can't prove it. It is just statements. Lahiri wrote much about internal guru, so I believe that Babaji is methaphor and.... Oh, gosh... This man states on his website that he does not belong to nath smpradaya so he should not claim that he has connection to Babaji Gorakshanth. Gorakshanath as yogi did existed in the Middle Ages in india and he was very powerful yogi but naths revere him as Divine Energy (or Dharma, sattvic tattva beyond Maya). This is not person. So Babaji is the same principle. In India they call any guru Babaji. So Babaji is guru principle. And probably it is same principle as Gorakshanath. One must not recieve transmision directly from Babaji. As for Kriya Yoga it is derived from nath tradition actually and it is simplified version of nath's techniques. Anyone who has transmission from a guru have right to say he is initiated by Babaji. But I repeat that Babaji is not real immortal yogi in flesh but Divine principle. You have to be careful with someone who states that he belongs to nath tradition. There are loads of fake gurus in India and only few are real gurus. There are many attached to money gurus even among naths. The same goes to Kriya Yoga. They use some ideas from authentic yoga to use people in their goals. I would suggest you to read Lahiri's commentaries on yoga. As for his claims of meeting Babaji don't take it too seriously. It could be someone who showed him kriyas. There are many kriyas in India bc people interpreted nath techniqes on diff manner. If you ask me how I know this I will say that I know guru of nath tradition and I talked a lot to him about yoga and he said that Babaji is myth. He is probably only one authentic guru who talk about yoga with westerners. It is closed tradition and really diff to find real guru who will tell you about true Yoga. Sorry but I have to say that almost anyone who says anything about yoga or Indian yogis does not know much about real Yoga. You must talk to someone who initated to authentic Yoga in Indian Tradition. There are many theories about yoga in many western schools coming from teachers like Swami... or Shri Shri... and many books have written but unfortunatelly this is not true information about Yoga.

The problem is no one seen Babaji. They believe that Babaji is only symbol of the internal Guru who they called Babaji and that such real person never existed. This is just symbol of the Divine Avatar, not real looking young immortal person. There were many people in India who called themselves Babaji but no one could maintain the young appearance. In Yoga there is another purpose - the immortality in Spirit but not in the body. The physical immortality is the feature of alchemical taosim but this might have symbolical meaning imho. There are few levels of "immortality" in Taoism but they symbolize the phases of spiritual transformation rather than physical longevity. IMHO of course

They say you have to practice it along with Taichi Qigong. Then it will give you more benefits. I suppose that first one should practice TQ and taichi and only then begin seated brocade qigong. I have all these qigong DVD's and books. Probably I will do it when I have time for it. I wanted to do it now but later I realized that it is only qigong and it is very questionable if it is spiritual. It's up to you what you are looking for. These qigongs are just practice with post-heaven qi and I wonder how it can give you longevity. As far as I know one must replenish pre-heaven qi in order to get long life as this pre-heaven qi determines our most inner "fuel" of life. It can not be received from the book or video IMHO. That man probably got spiritual transmission from his teacher and we are talking of the longevity technique we should always remember this. For example the teacher of S.A. Olson lived "only" 102 years and he did not seem to get real transmission otherwise he would live rather longer. So they are cunning saying that you get the same technique on the DVD. IMHO. You must have spiritual teacher for such technique. And I would think twice if it is worth to live that much. That might be good but maintaining the young appearance but not old body and face like shrunk vegetable.

The more your yoga traditional the less chances to get K. syndrome. (KS). People often have severe KS bc they rely on techniques rather than on Traditional system within Dharma teaching. They get KS bc they have loads of impurities in granthas (three tan tiens). And when K is awaken it gives unpleasant feelings. Traditionally K. revered as Goddess or Divine Power which is located in outer space and descend from the top (7th chakra). In its turn it starts to evolve kundalini within the body and this is process is most safe and requires the Shaktipat of guru from spiritual lineage or personal guru but latter does not mean that one can create his/her own technique and thus obtain Shaktipat. The technique must come from spiritual lineage and this is only the way to avoid severe KS. Ask people who sell you "kundalini" stuff if they have traditional techniques and if they teach Dharma rather than giving just bunch of techniques how to open 3d eye or muladhara. Some people just make up techniques, call it "kundalini yoga" or "high level yoga" and sell it for the purpose of personal enrichment. If they do not have ancient texts of their school and they refer to someone in the past who created these techniques you should do research on these people and tradition if it was really spiritual lineage where spiritual realization happened in the past. This should not be akin to "there was great yogi (taoist) in the mountain who created...". WHO was that yogi (taoist), what is the spiritual lineage? Sometime they refer to people who lived in the past and who you can't check... no texts... no tradition.. no spirituality... JUST techniques with some feelings of something in the spine. I read here in the forum some people were saying that their kundalini is rising... but imho they only believe it is Kundalini... Kundalini may have many qualities beginning from gross feelings in the spine and ending up with Divine Purity. It's up to you what is in you and which energy you activate inside of you. Not all techniques the same and not all of them spiritual. Even if they call it spiritual or say it has Divine nature. The only way to make sure you are on the right path is to make sure your system has roots in real authentic spiritual tradition. It is not qigong, not bunch of techniques, not self made bunch of techniques with breath, movements and so on... Spirituality is rather Dharma than technique. Beware people here who promote CDs, DVD's promising you kundalini. They crave for money raher than teach you spirituality

Let's just say they can not even say the name of their school and their guru's name. But it is known as "modern synthesized kundalini yoga". Fair enough. All authentic lineages are well known in india and guru's heard about another traditional schools and know many other gurus. There are many branches of schools and many half traditional styles but if they could provide realizations those schools would be renown for sure. All main schools have lineages and traditional texts. I do not know which karma one should have to take part in this project. But I realize it is typical for the west and there are loads yoga schools like that. Somebody sent me PM with link to another "authentic" yoga lineage where the lineage was made up with funny aka Indian names and drawn with hands pictures of the "Himalayan yogis". A man is in funny poses on the pictures there on the website and invite people for real yoga... When I answered to that PM I got reply that "but he does astral projection in a class and has sex with students... he is very coool".

who never charged for teaching, never stopped learning, and died over a hundred years of age. Yeah, thats "commercial self made yoga" I'm done here... That's just emotions. Do you know how many Himalayan yogis in Himalayas? Thousands. It does not mean that they practice authentic yoga. There are many "yogis" who just do asanas sometime and smoke charas. Anyone can state that he learnt from yogi in Himalayas. And then charge 500 $ for seminar and saying that his teacher does not charge anyone and he is immortal and many many other weird stuff. It's up to you who to believe. I just said that this does not seem traditional approach to yoga. You have nothing to compare with and you have little experience with traditional yoga if any at all. If someone mixes up yoga with qigong referring to some great yogi somewhere in the mountains personally for me it sounds weird at least bc I know something about traditional yoga and that it is never mixed up with taoist systems. But I agree that there are many diff yoga systems in India and many diff yogis and that it might have good practices but all this stuff is very questionable especially when someone sells it in the West for big money. Without traditional approach it would be some kind of qigong but you shoukd be aware that qigong derived from taoist alchemy and it's diluted form. You did not answer what you are looking for in this system. Kundalini? When you get it evolved let us know, please. Who got kundalini evolved there?

snowmonki, I can list here only few traditional yoga lineage just for example: - nath sampradaya - kashmir shaivism - kubjika - kriya yoga of Lahiri Mahasaya ..... The list of indian yoga above refers to the yogic and tantric sects which have traditional authentic Parampara. Also there many half traditional yoga. For example: - Shivananda yoga (which is only his personal therapeutic style of yoga) - Swami Satyananda's yoga - Krishnamacharya's yoga (personal style as well) - Dihrendha Brahmachari's yoga (style) and many others And there are many many not traditional self made diluted yoga made up in USA. Yogi Bajan is good example of such the "yoga". He refers to "sikh yoga", but sikhs do not practice yoga in common and there never had been "kundalini yoga" within sikh tradition. If you refer to yogi Bajan's style which was self-made, as example of "traditional yoga" I will strongly disagree with you on this. It does not have Parampara and has no any traditional roots in authentic yoga. This is mix of some techniques. I will explain briefly why this is not traditional yoga. Traditionally in Indian authentic sampradayas they revere Kundalini as the Goddess and they do pujas for her and for other Deities of theirs traditions. Yoga asana's and pranayamas are only PART of methods and all of them are connected with Tantra. But some people only took some methods from there and invented their own styles for health benefits merely or for some other benefits such as diff small siddhis akin to some neigong benefits in MA. And they invented theirs STYLES. But style just fits a certain person. In Tradition there are many other techniques and methods and only Guru can choose what is right for a certain person. And spirituality means transmission from guru what one can't get from yoga instructor. Yoga instructor can just only show you technique. Ok, they can tell you that your guru is "inside" and "blah blah blah", but this is just words, words and words.... Who got spiritual realization in these yoga styles? Why you think this is Yoga? Bc they have flexible bodies and say nice words? First you have to determine what you are looking for in yoga. The word Yoga for itself means "Union" and "Connection". The Union of Shiva and Shakti and Connection to the spiritual lineage. Better to say "commercial self made "yoga" " What is the classical yoga? That's right! I agree A Doc acknowledged spiritual attainments of another doc? Good stuff! An old women coming to a doctor and complains on her health. Doctors does medical inspection and says "Ah, I give you prescription. Kundalini yoga twice a day. One hour in the morning and one hour before going to bed ". What is the lineage? I could not find any info on this on the web. But what I could see was the mix of conceptions and techniques taken from qigong and "yoga". That' enough for me. You do not have any of good points in your post

SriChi, the very first yogis in Indian tradition were Celestial Avatars (incarnations of Lord Shiva) such as Gorakshanath, Babaji or Guru Padmasambhava considered as incarnation of Buddha. You might ask who was a teacher of Buddha and this is good question but you have to remember that all of them were disciples of their teachers and all these lineages hold different Parampara lineage which is coming from God. That means that all authentic lineages comes after incarnations of Avatars who in yogic tradition were incarnations of Lord Shiva. You want to say that Dr. Glenn Morris is such the Mahayogi. Do you have any evidence of this? How he can prove this? Did Mahayogis of the past sell their yoga for 500$ for each level? Did they hold seminars for the bunch of $$$? What you can see, lads, today is how many people invent some stuff and selling it for the sake of good profits but ask them how are they spiritual. Many of them do not know what is spirituality and they only speak of it. Spirituality is not a technique. Kundalini yoga never has been a technique. It is impossible to awake Kundalini just by breath or physical movements. If somebody says he evolved his/her kundalini by breath or bandhas - avoid it. This is confusion. They just arise they apana and confuse it with kundalini. Yoga in the West today is very good commercial product and you have to always keep it mind. The same situation is in Qigong actually. If you start ask these people about spirituality they will not be able to reply to your all queries and will not be able to explain you all things about it. They only can sell you some techniques - how to breath or how to move. it can have some benefits for health but sometime it can be harmful. Anyway there are loads of free stuff available online or in books which comes from renown yogis. Why to pay so much money to someone else? Invent your own stuff, promote it and get profits. If you do not have money and want good yoga techniques just spend some 30$ and get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Kriya-Secrets-Revealed-Complete-Techniques/dp/1479109517/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381219965&sr=1-1&keywords=kriya+yoga And say Goodbye to all your doctors who want bunch of $$$ from you. At least this is set of traditional authentic techniques

1)I know KAP safely awakens Kundalini and is the most effective. Hi. How do you know it's safe and most effective? What about possible kundalini syndrome? As far as I know only traditional yoga methods are the most safe and effective. That mean there must be Parampara - spiritual lineage where pupil should receive transmission and is to be guided by his guru. At least kundalini practice must have traditional roots coming from authentic yoga lineage. What is the lineage KAP coming from? How is it safe? Who is going to mitigate kundalini syndrome which you might have? How are you sure that you will do everything right? 2)But i dont have the money Well, that' just may be not for you at the moment. If they do not reply to your request just let it go imho.